A Cleaner, Cheaper Route to Titanium

Burlap writes "Using technology developed at MIT, 4-person startup Avanti Metal hopes to reduce the cost of producing Titanium from the current $40 per pound to a mere $3. The article discusses how a special combinations of oxides and electrolysis separates the titanium metal from the Earth's abundant titanium oxide ore."

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http://www.techreview.com/printer_friendly_article .aspx?id=16963 [techreview.com]

Yeah, the ad... not very helpful.

I'm surprised

[Watson Ladd (955755)]

No one found this earlier. The Hall-Heroult Process for aluminium is basically the same,and has been known for well over a century.

Re:I'm surprised

[qbwiz (87077)]

I agree, although the temperatures that they say that this process occurs at are almost twice the temperature you need to refine aluminum. That might explain why it was considered practical for aluminum, but not considered for titanium. They did say that they were having problems with heat.

Re:I'm surprised

[JohnFluxx (413620)]

Hmm, 1700C is the temperature a normal (non-energy saving) light bulb works at. At 1700 the efficency is terrible (around 1%). To make light bulbs more efficent, you 'merely' need to increase the temperature. The problem is finding materials that you can do this with.

To increase the temperature you need a material that won't oxide, react, etc at high temperatures. The best material is tungsten. However this does rapidly corrode. Hallogen lamps and energy saving light bulbs use this. The tungsten is heated to 2400C. At this temperature it has an efficency of almost 4%. However the tungsten corrodes very rapidly. Halogen lamps have the bulb bit made out of quartz, which makes the halogen air inside react with the tungsten that has corroded off, and pushes it back on to the tungsten. So the corroded tungsten is continually put back on.

Going above 2400C is not simple. Tungsten has a melting temperature of 3400C, but you would need to deal with the corroding at a fantastic rate. Also tungsten is fantastically expensive and rare.

Re:I'm surprised

[AtomicBomb (173897)]

The concept is not new: basically the same as the Hall cell for aluminium production. But, I believe finding a suitable salt is not that easy. In the case of aluminium, cyrolite is used. In titanium, what's the suitable one? Suppose you mix Ti2O3 with another metal salt, you may get another metal instead of Ti. Needless to say, the whole electrolysis process gets quite messy at 1500+ degC.

Re:I'm surprised

[by Anonymous Coward]

Another cleaner, cheaper route for Titanium production has been developed in Cambridge, UK.

Reach about the FFC Process for Titanium Extraction [cam.ac.uk].

Better processing available

[by Anonymous Coward]

Nobody uses the Titanium. Servers just use a MD Pteron if they want price-performance. And Onroe is just around the corner. Even cheaper Titaniums aren't worth the bother. Ntel can't drop the product line as a matter of face, but consumers just aren't buying it.

Apples and oranges...

[THotze (5028)]

I always love articles like this when they compare the price of MAKING something with the price of SELLING something. Titanium's sold on a market sort of like oil... prices fluctuate based on demand more than they do based on the cost of production.... if the price of titanium is $40 this year, and was half as much last year... last year it was $20, and I'm SURE that people were making a profit selling that, so it was produced for probably a maximum of $15, probably more like $10/lb.

So yes, this saves money... but it needs to be done in a large scale, 1st. I don't know how they come up with a cost/lb estimate that they consider to be more than VERY ball park estimate... $3 could be $6.

Its substantial savings, but its not like we're going to be able to start planning our houses with titanium frames in a few years or anything. And that's assuming that demand doesn't keep skyrocketing above supply... in which case we could have the same price (or more!) regardless of how much it costs to produce titanium.

Tim

Re:Apples and oranges...

[Martin Blank (154261)]

If, as they say, it can be completed with far fewer messy components, then it is more likely to be approved by a planning council. If that is the case, then there would be more factories built, increasing supply to better meet demand, and reducing the cost of the metal on the spot market accordingly.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[diablomonic (754193)]

I agree on the whole "announce a price when we havent even got a commercial demo plant" thing being stupid, but you seem to have missed something. According to the article, supply of titanium is currently very limited due to environmental concerns, while demand keeps going up (and, although I'm not a metalurgist, is there any reason that titanium couldnt replace steel almost entirely if it was cheap enough? thats a lot of demand!). This removes that supply problem entirely if it works of course.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[Andy Dodd (701)]

"and, although I'm not a metalurgist, is there any reason that titanium couldnt replace steel almost entirely if it was cheap enough?"

In addition to being expensive, titanium is NOT easy to work with.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[scheme (19778)]

In addition to being expensive, titanium is NOT easy to work with.

Just as an illustration, welding titantium in a normal atmosphere will cause it to become brittle. You need an inert atmosphere (e.g. argon) at the weld point and on the cooling joint to protect it. Any iron or steel contamination will also screw things up.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[modecx (130548)]

Just as an iustration, welding titantium in a normal atmosphere will cause it to become brittle. You need an inert atmosphere (e.g. argon) at the weld point and on the cooling joint to protect it.

You're right, you need a good supply of argon to keep hot titanium from forming oxides or nitrides with atmospheric gas. It's an amazing thing, nearly *all* of the non-aviation titanium welds I've seen were not done right, and they have either an amber tint (not good) or a blue tint (really not good), and often a little rainbow of colors somewhere inbetween. The one exception I've noted is the race car industry. They actually do it right, and lives depend on it, so it's a good thing. The aftermarket parts for cars though? Holy shit, that stuff is ALWAYS FUBAR, and if it were to serve a purpose like strut bars for race/street cars, I imagine they'd crack if they were actually used for a few good hours. The funny thing is that I'm sure they think those colors are pretty!

Anyway...

Re:Apples and oranges...

[big tex (15917)]

"and, although I'm not a metalurgist, is there any reason that titanium couldnt replace steel almost entirely if it was cheap enough? "

One word: welding.

OK, I'm drunk, but bear with me. I weld best this way, so explanations should work as well.
Welding steel is easy, really easy. It can be done outside, with nothing but a constant-current power source and some flux coated rods (SMAW,or 'stick' welding). This requires a minimal amount of skill. Move on to some better equipment, say wire feeders and constant-voltage machines, and we can weld sheet metal like it's nothing (GMAW) or lay down some structural fill in a hurry (FCAW or SAW). I can teach someone to weld FCAW in a few hours, provided they're smart enough not to burn themselves and not look at the bright lights without a shield.

Titanium oxidizes like a little bitch. Basically, the largest part of welding technology is creative ways to keep oxygen, hydrogen, and those other things in the air away from the weld puddle. This can be done by flux (SMAW, FCAW, SAW), or by shielding gasses like CO2, Ar, He (GMAW, FCAW, GTAW). The only good way to weld titanium is by using TIG (GTAW). This is the most skilled, labor-intensive, slowest process going. I can lay down steel welds for bridge in pounds per hour, but titanium takes hours per pound.

Now, more available titanium should lead to a titanium MIG (GMAW) process, but that's still small potatoes compared to SAW, GMAW, and it can't really be done outside. (I don't want to hear about the trailer you welded in your driveway. Try it two stories up in the wind, or on a barge, and we'll talk). To provide another point of reference, the high production and field processes (SAW, FCAW, SMAW) don't work with Aluminum, the 20th century's miracle metal, because they are flux-based and Aluminum doesn't do flux-based, flat out. Titanium will be the same way.

In summary, titanium is kept in limited used in industry because it's hard to weld, not because it's expensive.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[modecx (130548)]

In summary, titanium is kept in limited used in industry because it's hard to weld, not because it's expensive.

Just wanted to add to all of the great stuff you said by also pointing out that titanium is also a pain to work with in pretty much every other way. It's tough to machine, it's also a bitch to use as sheet metal--it's springy and not as malleable as steel or aluminum at room temperature. You've often got to heat it signifigantly if you need to make tight bends... Plus, all of that is compounded by the alloys of titanium which are even harder to use and form than the pure stuff.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[vijayiyer (728590)]

Titanium, while strong per unit weight, has a relatively low modulus of elasticity, making it "flexible". Thus it is often not well suited to applications requiring high rigidity. Steel is more rigid per unit volume, and aluminum per unit weight.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[bigpat (158134)]

Let's think of this from a business standpoint: patent the process. Produce titanium in small numbers to prevent market saturation. Charge the same amount as everyone else, but at 10% the production cost. I don't see the savings being passed to the consumer anytime soon.

Well the patent holder would want to maximise profit, so will have to produce enough to make it worth while. So, this would increase supply at least somewhat and thus likely decrease prices. And it is very likely that the patent holder would just want to license the process to current companies instead of actually getting capital to start their own plant. So, they would have incentive to license the process to as many companies as possible. At which point it only takes one company to decide that it needs to increase production to increase market share in order to have an effect of lowering prices. Of course, there can always be anti competitive price fixing, but that is illegal and can't go on forever.

Re:Apples and oranges...

[autophile (640621)]

Well, according to this US gov't report on titanium prices [usgs.gov], titanium has never been cheaper, and consumption is generally up. I could find any market for titanium futures, BTW. Not COMEX, not FOREX, nothing. I wonder why that is?

--Rob

Great for chainmaillers

[Kabuthunk (972557)]

Sweet! I'm sure this will likely have a significantly higher impact on pretty much all products as is, but this will affect me in a slightly different way. I'm one of the few that make chainmail as a hobby. Titanium chainmail is significantly lighter, rusts less, etc, etc. Significantly better for metalcraft than stainless steel or galvanized steel or anything like that in my opinion.

So, having cheaper working materials = excellent for people like me :}

Re:Great for chainmaillers

[misleb (129952)]

Normally I hate getting chain letters, but at $40/lb, it might not be such a bad deal. I'm not worried about bad luck so I'd just sell them when the price is high. Shall I email you my snail-mail address?

-matthew

Chainmail

[Mark_MF-WN (678030)]

You make chainmail? Truly, a geek among geeks. You ought to be careful -- if the amount of geekosity in a given area of space gets too high, it can collapse into a dork-hole.

Just jeffin' ya. Sounds like an interesting hobby. Know anyone who makes swords? I've heard that the metallurgy that goes into a modern metal blade is quite impressive, and that modern swords -- despite being made almost entire by hobbyists -- are far superior to the swords of antiquity.

modern swords

[bodrell (665409)]

Know anyone who makes swords? I've heard that the metallurgy that goes into a modern metal blade is quite impressive, and that modern swords -- despite being made almost entire by hobbyists -- are far superior to the swords of antiquity.

You weren't addressing me, but regardless . . .

My brother knows one of these modern-day master swordsmakers. One of the new tricks is to use high quality braided cable as a starting material. You flux it or something, then heat and pound. Like starting out with a Damascus or samurai style laminated blade, but woven instead of folded. Sounded pretty cool to me.

Re:modern swords

[LordNightwalker (256873)]

Yup, I helped a friend make small strips of that for use in knifemaking. It's relatively easy; all you need is a gas forge (he helped me make mine, there's not much to it actually), an anvil, borax, steel cable, a welding machine and some large forging pliers to hold the hot piece of metal while beating it with a hammer. Oh, and you need a decent hammer too; one with hardened faces; soft ones won't do.

The process is simple; you tie off one end of the cable with some wire, before the point where it starts to untangle. You then cut off the untangled part relatively close to the point where you tied it off. Then weld the end fixed, so it won't untangle again. Repeat the same process a bit down the cable; how far depends on how long a strip you want to create. You then fire up your gas forge, wait for it to heat up completely, and just put the rod in. Wait untill it glows the right shade of red, take it out of the fire, then either throw borax on it using a large salt-shaker type of thing, or just roll the rod into a large bowl of borax. This will form a layer of borax around the rod. Back into the forge, the borax will seep between the strands of the cable, eating away at the impurities contained within. Repeat this process a couple of times... actually, a lot of times... The borax will drip into your forge, and it will eventually eat through the hull, so you better use one with a decent ceramic coating to prevent or slow down this process. Anyway, after you've repeated this process enough times, it's time to start welding the cable into a proper strip.

Make sure you wear decent protection, because when you hit that cable with your hammer, borax might shoot out, and hot borax will leave wounds that will ooze puss for days when it hits your bare skin. Even if you don't care about a couple of scars and some temporary discomfort, at least be smart enough to wear eye protection. Great, let's get on with it. Take the rod out of the forge, it's best to work in pairs so one can hold it with the pliers while laying it on the anvil, while the other smashes away at it with the hammer. Start beating it at one end, and do a couple of centimeters at a time. At first your goal is to create a rod with a square cross section; once you have that, you repeat the process, this time flattening it into a strip. Every time the metal cools off (starts glowing dimmer), put it back in the forge, and when it's heated up enough again, repeat the process, but start where you left off, slowly working your way from one end of the rod to the other. You'll notice that the metal will warp under the blows of your hammer; this is perfectly normal. Just turn it around, and you can smash it straight again. First hammer it on four sides to a square cross section, when you've covered the whole rod, repeat but this time beating it only on two sides so you end up with a strip.

Eventually, you'll end up with a rudimentary strip of cable damascus a couple of millimeters thick. Flatten it with a belt sander or whatever you have at your disposal, cut it into a straight strip, and you have a nice piece of cable damascus for stock removal production of knives (meaning you file the shape of the knife out of the bare strip, leaving the edge about 1mm in thickness, heat treat it, then polish and sharpen it). Of course you don't have to go the stock removal route; if you're more inclined to actually forge your knife/sword out of the rod, then work towards the shape you want for your knife/sword instead of a straight strip, and finish it off by belt sanding it to its final shape, heat treating it, then polishing and sharpening it.

You can find lots of info on knife/sword forging online if you google around a bit, and there's tons of books written on the subject. I'm just lucky I have a couple of friends who inducted me into this obscure art, though I wish I had more time to actually finish the designs I started... ;)

For those interested in this kind of stuff, a good starting point might be the knife makers [bladeforums.com] forums on bladeforums [bladeforums.com].

Re:Great for chainmaillers

[Nefarious Wheel (628136)]

Yep, I've got a friend who makes maille too, says the same thing (unless you're him, K?). I tried to sell him on the idea of Unobtanium, but he said his customers prefer either Titanium or Expensium. Hardtoobtainium is pretty good too, but suffers from consistency of supply issues.

Oh, cool...

[creimer (824291)]

Now I can buy the colorful lights for the warp drive engine instead spending all the money on plating the hull with expensive titanium. Warp 1 has never been so cheap!

Steel Age

[pete-classic (75983)]

Thank God! I thought the Steel Age was never going to end!

-Peter

Awesome!

[eric434 (161022)]

I took Sadoway's class last year. Awesome guy -- this is right up his alley (making things more environmentally friendly).

Here's a PDF presentation on the process:
http://web.mit.edu/dsadoway/www/MOE_Ti.pdf [mit.edu]

One of my first jobs

[IamNotAgeek (708764)]

I worked at a titanium manufacturing plant where I analyzed samples for nitrogen contamination. Even though it was a pretty low level repetitive job, I still felt like a scientist working in a lab wearing a lab coat and the head chemist was a guy from Sweden named Jurgen (?sp). I also remember that the titanium tetrachloride was so volatile that just a spoonfull released into the atmosphere would create a huge white cloud and the fire department would show up and management would have to fill out an incident report. Good memories, except for the time I got hydrofluoric acid on my fingers, very painfull, and of course when I accidently breathed in some vapors and had frequent nosebleeds for several years afterwards.

Re:One of my first jobs

[Beltonius (960316)]

I'm currently working at a company specializing in Ti and Ti alloys/composites.
I have little to no faith in this actually producing anything substantial within the next several years.

Why? I have read about this same guy pitching his process for the past several years, and my company has a file on him going back almost a decade; he's been saying his process will yield results 'soon' for far too long for me to readily believe him.

Last year, even, I read a presentation he gave, and it consisted of little more than a brief high-school chemistry explanation of electrolysis (which is all this is, same process that produces hydrogen and oxygen from water) and stating a hope that they will build an experimental cell soon. Apparently he's gotten that far, but 200 mg aren't going to help much to combat the currently sky-rocketing Ti prices.

And yes, they are very high right now. Half our work is focused on improving Ti recycling processes so that scrap can be used more widely; the rest of the work is biomedical applications where cost is not an issue.

The point is: Yes, if this works it could mean a much cheaper/environmentally friendly (I'm a little doubtful of this; yea, there won't be concentrated TiCl or Cl gas lying around, but it's an electrolytic process, it will use lots of electricity, and that will produce extra waste) process. This is a conceptually simple process; basically it requires experimentation to get the parameters right. He has spent very little time actually experimenting.

For those that took 3.091

[Zackbass (457384)]

Looks like Sadoway may just be on his way to that Nobel prize he's been obsessed with. :P

For those that aren't familiar with MIT's most pimp chem prof you can enjoy a full semester of his lectures right here: http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Materials-Science-and-En gineering/3-091Fall-2004/LectureNotes/index.htm [mit.edu]

titanium anti-corrosion coating

[cyfer2000 (548592)]

Mean while the price of titanium anti-corrosion coating will increase from $3 to $40 per pound.

Scotty?

[shoolz (752000)]

Was it he who dropped this info to the startup? Did he also drop the transparency trick too? Please say yes.

Inexpensive Russian Titanium..

[thesupraman (179040)]

Of course they are carefully looking at the AMERICAN price for titanium production..

It is much much cheaper in Russia, as it is basically produced as a side effect of steel production there due to the different ores available.
Most significant titanium users source their titanium from Russia, and there is little interest in other sources as Russia just has the right ores anyway.

Oh well, good try though.

WOO HOO!

[GrumblyStuff (870046)]

Titanium foil hats HERE WE COME!

Re:Not exactly

[timeOday (582209)]

I don't see titanium soda cans or anything on the horizon (bikes, probably. Planes... maybe partially.)

You gotta be joking. Titanium has been used in bicycles for years, and in aerospace for decades. So the question is not whether titanium will be used, but how much more widely it will be used.

Re:Not exactly

[DeadChobi (740395)]

Not to be pedantic or anything, but you would actually fare worse in a car wreck in a Titanium car, as it wouldn't give as readily as steel. The more time the impact lasts, the less force the passengers experience. So in a wreck between a titanium Geo Metro and a steel Geo Metro, the passengers of the titanium car could be extracted faster but would be more likely to die. There are more considerations to engineering than just weight and efficiency. If something cant get you from point A to point B as safely as the less-efficient alternative, than the less-efficient alternative bears at least some looking into.

Re:Not exactly

[Eccles (932)]

Not to be pedantic or anything, but you would actually fare worse in a car wreck in a Titanium car, as it wouldn't give as readily as steel.

So why don't we make cars out of cotton wool or balsa wood?

You want crumple zones, yes, but surrounding a stiff inner structure. That's why doors have stiff cross-beams in them, race cars have roll cages, etc. No titanium for the crumple zones, sure, but you want it for the roll cage.

Re:Whoo Hoo

[Tribbin (565963)]

For the harddrive and other parts not to break, the laptop better have some sort of buffer to break the fall instead.

Re:Aluminium?

[Deadstick (535032)]

Twice as strong vs 1.6 times as heavy, higher melting point, better resistance to corrosion and fatigue.

rj

Re:Aluminium?

[corngrower (738661)]

And it maintains it's strength at high temperatures. Steel tends to weaken quite a bit as it gets hot.
This is why titanium is used in things like the turbine blades of jet engines, and the leading edges of supersonic aircraft.

About two years ago the folks at Oxford University developed a process for producing the metal from
its common ore more cheaply that the process commonly in use. I think it's now being tested
commercially at at least one company here in the U.S. I'ld bet that the MIT process is very
similar to the one developed at Oxford.

Titanium oxide is commonly used as a white pigment for paints.

Re:Aluminium?

[r00t (33219)]

Titanium doesn't corrode as much, and it's non-poisonous. It's one of the few things that is safe to implant in a human body. The oxide is use to make foods white.

Meanwhile, aluminum has issues. At best it makes your soda taste yucky after a while. Maybe it contributes to Altzheimer's disease. If you cook tomatoes in an aluminum pan, you'll get holes in the pan.

Re:Aluminium?

[bodrell (665409)]

Meanwhile, aluminum has issues. At best it makes your soda taste yucky after a while.

Sorry, but there's no direct contact between the soda and the metal. The cans are lined with a thin coating of some sort. Otherwise the soda would indeed dissolve the can.

In case you're doubting, here's the experiment that showed me what's up: Wash two soda cans. Score the inside of one of the cans, just a tiny scratch going all the way around, to penetrate the protective coating. Then fill both cans with an acidic

Re:Aluminium?

[r00t (33219)]

You can tear apart an unscored can as if it were paper. They are really thin these days.

Steel was once used, but we had to switch to aluminum because Coke ate through the steel too fast.

Re:Aluminium?

[Frangible (881728)]

Several reasons:

1. Insulation; titanium is less condutive of heat/electricity. This can be a benefit or detriment depending on the application.
2. Strength; the same amount of Ti/Al alloys to support a specific load can be made with a lighter weight of Ti. An equal volume of Ti is heavier than Al, though.
3. Fatigue life; titanium, like iron, has infinite fatigue life. Aluminum does not. What this means is you can make a spring from Ti but Al will fail if repeatedly stressed.
4. Corrosion; titanium is more corrosion resistant than Al because it oxidizes rapidly in contact with air
5. Social reasons; titanium has significantly more percieved value than Al, moreso than the material differences. Further Ti has a unique color as well.

Sometimes aluminum will still be better; in many applications the relative strength difference doesn't matter and thus a lighter equivalent volume of Al is advantageous. Also, the high conductivity of Al is a good thing in many situations.

The most common Ti alloy, Ti-6Al-4V, actually has 6% Al in it.

The Sheffield and it's aluminum superstructure

[erice (13380)]

The Sheffield was lost in the Falkland Islands conflict. It is popularly beleived that this was due to the alumiminum superstructure catching fire. However, it seems that the Sheffield did not have an aluminum superstructure and the Sheffield was lost for other reasons.

http://www.hazegray.org/faq/smn6.htm#F7 [hazegray.org]
http://www.alfed.org.uk/templates/alfed/content.as p?PageId=111 [alfed.org.uk]

It is also worth noting that any metal can catch fire if you get it hot enough, even steel.

Re:Ad problem.

[Namronorman (901664)]

Or eyewear. Titanium: Light, durable, and not too many people that I know of are allergic to it because it's low in allergens. In fact, I wear a pair of DKNY Titanium Frames with "Featherwates" lenses... 0.7 ounces, or roughly 19.84 (ooh spooky) grams!

Re:Ad problem.

[afidel (530433)]

Actually that durability can be one of the biggest problems with Titanium rings, trauma sheers can't cut them so if you have any kind of severe sweeling problem there's a good chance of digit loss because the ER won't be able to remove the ring. That and the fact that my father gave me his ring are the reason I didn't get a titanium one. (He hadn't worn his in 20 years due to working with the machining industry and seeing several people lose their hands in machines due to wedding bands).

Re:Ad problem.

[RockModeNick (617483)]

Thats incorrect. Any good steel shear, including the wiss tinsnips in my tool drawer, will cut a titanium ring apart easily. Titanium may have a better strength to weight ratio than steel, but steel is much harder at simular or even smaller actual size and as such will easily shear titanium.

Re:1,700 degrees Celsius

[erice (13380)]

Unless you were to construct a nuclear power plant to directly heat the titanium oxide mixture using the reactor pile itself.

Unfortunatley, the world market for radioactive titanium is rather small.

You will need some sort of high temperature heat exchanger that will not, itself, become radioactive. I don't think water will do. Actually, you may have trouble just running the reactor that hot. I think you will need a gaseous core reactor.

http://gif.inel.gov/roadmap/pdfs/non-classical_rea ctor_systems.pdf [inel.gov]

Th

Re:like aluminum?

[Forbman (794277)]

No, what made Aluminum(aluminium) valuable was whoever figured out how to cast it in a mold without leaving the funky wavy lines in the casting where the aluminum didn't "flow" against the mold completely. Before that, it was a curiosity, because all those funky mold defects really weakened it even more.