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NASA To Determine Hubble's Fate

Posted by CmdrTaco on Thu Oct 26, 2006 10:21 AM
from the you-can-store-it-on-my-lawn dept.
clickclickdrone writes "According to the BBC NASA is debating whether or not to send astronauts in to space to service the Hubble telescope. Without intervention it is thought to be good for another 24-36months. Given the quality of images and data it has produced since it's launch, it sounds like a no brainer to me but the people who hold the purse strings are rarely predictable when it comes to spending money."
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[+] The Hubble Lives On 132 comments
tanman writes "CNN reports that NASA Administrator Michael Griffin has agreed to send astronauts on one final mission to repair the Hubble Space Telescope. No date was reported for the mission, other than before the shuttle fleet is retired. From the article, 'A rehab mission would keep Hubble working until about 2013. It would add two new camera instruments, upgrade aging batteries and stabilizing equipment, add new guidance sensors and repair a light-separating spectrograph. Without a servicing mission, Hubble will likely deteriorate in 2009 or 2010.'"
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  • Auction Hubble (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Colin Smith (2679) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:24AM (#16594100)
    Sell it off to the highest bidder. Some other space agency may well want to take over the maintenance and running of the telescope. Or maybe Google to grab it turn it round and use it to map the earth down to the smallest pebble.

     
    • I can see it now, the GoldenPalace.com Space Telescope!
    • Re:Auction Hubble (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Orange Crush (934731) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:35AM (#16594286)
      What other nation or organization has a spacecraft capable of servicing Hubble within 24-36 months? Bear in mind, Hubble was designed to be serviced by the shuttle. Everyone else is pretty much using capsules exclusively, which aren't nearly as EVA-friendly nor do they have the necessary robotic arm.
      • What other nation or organization has a spacecraft capable of servicing Hubble within 24-36 months?

        FOR SALE: One Space Telescope, under warranty. w/ 3-year service contract. Ask for Tony.
        • Re:Auction Hubble (Score:5, Interesting)

          by wanerious (712877) on Thursday October 26 2006, @12:33PM (#16596512) Homepage
          Perhaps we're pushing this so hard is makework for all of people who have degrees (in this field)?

          Surprisingly not. Most astronomers I rub elbows with are not too supportive of the Hubble program. Sure, the pictures and deep field stuff is nice, but with recent advances in adaptive optics, we can build enormous ground-based scopes for much less money that outperform Hubble. And Hubble has diverted hundreds of millions of dollars away from other projects. I'm not a zealot for either side, but the professional astronomical community is certainly not of one mind on this.

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            Most astronomers I rub elbows with are not too supportive of the Hubble program.

            Interesting, which institution's astronomers are you "rubbing elbows" with? I'm a physicst, not an astronomer, but of all the astronomy faculty, post-docs, and grad students at my institution I know of only a single professional astronomer (out of dozens, maybe even approaching 100+) that favors phasing out Hubble, and that's only because he is a PI in a Hubble replacement proposal. And this includes astronomers that primaril

    • I was wondering if the common law of abandoned boats at sea would apply here. Namely if NASA abandons Hubble, it becomes the property of anyone who takes the time to repair and reclaim it. ...Special charter flight on Virgin Galactic anyone? It comes with a free space telescope.
    • They could get a pretty penny for hubble I'm sure. Even if it isn't used, it's quite a piece of historical data some rich crazy cowboy would buy. As great as it has been in the past, I may just be time for it to retire. NASA doesn't have billions to spend on projects like it used to. They can't operate like an IBM mainframe like they once did. They've got to be cheaper even if it means less reliable. More expendable. 30 years ago we would have never seen the types of mistakes we see today in unmanned missio
    • Re:Auction Hubble (Score:5, Informative)

      by Chosen Reject (842143) on Thursday October 26 2006, @11:00AM (#16594706)
      Because of how the Hubble Telescope works, [hubblesite.org] it would do a very crummy job of imaging Earth.
    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      Or maybe Google to grab it turn it round and use it to map the earth down to the smallest pebble.

      I'm sure you're just being facetious, but I figured I'd note for anyone that finds this sort of thing interesting, the Hubble can't track the earth. It's moving too fast, any images taken would end up as a streaky blur. Earth slides beneath it at something like 4 miles per second, and the shutter on the Hubble is intended for long exposures.

      The Hubble doesn't even have the resolution to pick out the lunar landin
  • Tell them Hubble might have found oil on a distant planet, and that we need to take another look.

    • Well, Cassini-Huygens did find hydrocarbons on Titan. Don't know if Hubble was involved.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassini-Huygens [wikipedia.org]
    • Since oil on a distant planet would be proof of life they had better take a closer look.
      • "Since oil on a distant planet would be proof of life"

        Prey tell, how so?
        -nB
              • Of course the presence of oil on another body would show that life once existed there. What book have you read that said that oil can be created in any manner other than through decomposing biological material?

                How about "Dissociation of Methane into Hydrocarbons at. Extreme (Planetary) Pressure and Temperature.", by F. Ancilotto, G. L. Chiarotti, S. Scandolo, and E. Tosatti, in the February 28, 1997 issue of Science? Their molecular dynamics simulations show that methane is likely to breakdown into a mixture including ethane, butane, and even alkanes (i.e. oil) at the high pressures and temperatures found deep within the interiors of Neptune and Uranus. No living organisms involved.

                Let me guess, you probably think that oil is an infinite resource that magically renews itself.

                Even when you feel certain that you're right, you should try to be more polite about it just in case you're wrong. Otherwise people may end up giving your opinions the same disdain you've shown to others.

                It sounds like you saw the topic, immediately thought "abiotic oil nutjob", and hurried to wail on him. However, just because you recognize the biological history of oil on Earth doesn't mean you have to jump to the conclusion that no other processes operate elsewhere. Take that attitude too far and you'll end up trying to find the alien messages in pulsars.
  • Not Only Money (Score:4, Insightful)

    by crymeph0 (682581) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:30AM (#16594188)

    it sounds like a no brainer to me but the people who hold the purse strings are rarely predictable when it comes to spending money.

    There's way more than money at stake here. Maybe Hubble is worth the risk to the astronaut's lives, but you can't just ignore that issue.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      This is an important point. The real question is not whether the mission is too risky but whether a few more years of Hubble is worth $1B+.
      • Re:Not Only Money (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Ctrl-Z (28806) <tim@timc[ ]man.com ['ole' in gap]> on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:39AM (#16594348) Homepage Journal
        Since the US government just signed off on a 700-mile-long fence along the Mexican border with a down payment of $1.2 billion [1] [cnn.com], I think it's worth spending that much for a few more years of Hubble. But that's just me.
        • Re:Not Only Money (Score:4, Interesting)

          by Xzzy (111297) <sether@NosPAm.tru7h.org> on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:58AM (#16594672) Homepage
          But what if that 1 billion were to end up spent on Hubble's replacement, which would permit a new level of research?

          A lot of the "save Hubble" defense seems to be more sentimental than practical. I'm not saying it should be tossed in the bin just because it's old, but it IS old, and technology has advanced tremendously since it was put into orbit. I'm not against being sentimental either, but if the money doesn't exist to maintain two space observatories, I know I'd choose to get an all new one.
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            I'm not against being sentimental either, but if the money doesn't exist to maintain two space observatories, I know I'd choose to get an all new one.

            That really isn't the choice. There isn't a replacement waiting in the wings that we can choose to launch instead. According to the WP article on HST [wikipedia.org], there may be a newer telescope that would be ready to launch in 2010, but that project is currently unfunded and thus that launch date should be pushed back by the time it would take to get funding. The JWST
          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            A lot of the "save Hubble" defense seems to be more sentimental than practical. I'm not saying it should be tossed in the bin just because it's old, but it IS old, and technology has advanced tremendously since it was put into orbit.

            I think it would be a shame to have no functioning space-based telescope.

            If they don't fix it, it will be a whole lot of years before (or, indeed, if) they get around to putting up a replacement. I can envision them not repairing Hubble, and then ultimately not putting up a rep

    • Re:Not Only Money (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dslbrian (318993) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:38AM (#16594326)

      There's way more than money at stake here. Maybe Hubble is worth the risk to the astronaut's lives, but you can't just ignore that issue.

      Thats the core of the debate I'm sure, but its a ridiculous point. Space travel is always a risk to an astronaut. If astronauts have a problem with the risks involved then they should get a different job. I'm sure there is a whole line of would be astronauts ready to take their place. Its was a risk when they first put the Hubble in place, and when they serviced it the first time. The risk is unchanged since then, in fact it should be lower since they now have ideas of what problems they may encounter.

      • by wass (72082) on Thursday October 26 2006, @11:02AM (#16594750)
        Actually, several astronauts have spoken out in the past few years saying they were willing to go service Hubble again, despite the risks. Ie, they understand the huge scientific output that are at stake should Hubble be shut down. Additionally, the risks aren't greater than previous Hubble servicing missions, it's just that there are problems of which we were blissfully unaware previously.
        • Of course we should take into account the willingness of astronauts to go into space for this mission. Especially because astronauts are not prone to ignoring safety considerations, and so if they are willing they probably think it is reasonably safe to do so. But it is worth pointing out that in a certain sense an astronaut is not entirely a private citizen. When we lose an astronaut, it's a blow to the entire nation.

          I'm just saying that just because we have astronauts willing to go doesn't mean we can
    • OTOH if NASA didn't have to do everything on the cheap, the astronauts would hopefully be at less risk every time they go up. Heck, it seems more dangerous now that it was in the 60's.
    • Re:Not Only Money (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mrchaotica (681592) * on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:42AM (#16594392)
      Maybe Hubble is worth the risk to the astronaut's lives, but you can't just ignore that issue.

      You're kidding, right? Anyone who manages to become an astronaut knows full well about the risks, and chose it anyway. If we were having to conscript people to go fix Hubble it would be one thing, but since the line of people who would volunteer to do it would stretch all the way from the launchpad to the vehicle assembly building, I say we let them do it!

      <flamebait>Besides, it's not any riskier than being a soldier in Iraq...</flamebait>

      • [flamebait]Besides, it's not any riskier than being a soldier in Iraq...[/flamebait]

        Since I'm biting on the flamebait, I'm not going to waste the time crunching numbers, but I think if you did you would be supprised just how much safer you are in Iraq over being an astronaut (percentage wise that is).
        -nB

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      it sounds like a no brainer to me but the people who hold the purse strings are rarely predictable when it comes to spending money.

      There's way more than money at stake here. Maybe Hubble is worth the risk to the astronaut's lives, but you can't just ignore that issue.

      This is going to sound cold - but its realistic.

      The astronauts lives really aren't worth considering. They are volunteers and know the score - and there are hundreds if not thousands more where they came from. OTOH, the Orbiters are

  • by Zarniwoop (25791) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:32AM (#16594244)
    It's not just money. It's risk of a shuttle launch. You may remember we've had a few... issues... recently with that.

  • wants to relive the heady days of the space race and the Apollo program - President Dubya is tired of this "Science for the sake of knowledge" stuff and wants to put men on the Moon and Mars.

    Besides, our current president is (seemingly) not quite sharp enought to get most of what science discovers using the HST. He'd rather have "feet on the ground" as it were, telling him things like "We've landed and claimed Mars in the name of the USA" rather than "We've made a startling discovery regarding the dynamics of planetary formation within stellar nurseries".

    That said, maybe it is time we went back to the true promise of space exploration - getting mankind out into the Galaxy. There is a certain attraction to the notion of manned space exploration versus robotic/remote methods. Certainly a kind of heroic appeal to the act itself; and all of our robotic/remote exploration was and is intended to ultimately pave the way for manned exploration anyhow. Perhaps we know enough now to take those first tenative steps into space.

    Like most coins, this one appears to have two sides.

    • President Bush knows, or at least his handlers know, that US space exploration needs the support of the public. While a great many things can be hidden away in a budget as vast as the US Federal government's there is considerable political danger in diverting money to something unpopular.

      Consider that while the push to put a human on the moon was mostly a marketing campaign the end result was that the public was happy to see large sums of their money spent on it. The shuttle program had similar hype but

  • The debate (Score:4, Insightful)

    by styryx (952942) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:40AM (#16594354)
    Is the cost of building and launching a new and better satellite going to much more expensive than training astronauts, sending them to hubble to fix it and bringing them back down again?

    Perhaps they could take the space elevator...:b
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Given the unreliability and outrageous costs of shuttle launches, it would probably be quicker and cheaper to take the backup mirror out of the Smithsonian Institution, build a new copy of the Hubble with it, and launch it on an expendable rocket. Unfortunately, in the mind of budget directors, that would be a "new project", and it would be harder to fund than just shoveling yet more money into the shuttle black hole.
  • Zap Brannigan is just going to blow it up anyway.
  • Don't.

    Yeah I know, the astronauts know the risks involved. Yet the risk is bigger to who manned space program should something go wrong, especially something going wrong on a mission that is "largely" optional.
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      Yeah I know, the astronauts know the risks involved. Yet the risk is bigger to who manned space program should something go wrong, especially something going wrong on a mission that is "largely" optional.

      The only space missions that are not entirely optional are the ones that involve recovering crew from a space station.

      If we can't afford the risk to service Hubble, then we can't afford the risk to do anything else in space and should just mothball the entire manned space program right now.

      The shuttle is no
  • If they decide not to do anything, couldn't some company claim it as salvage or abandoned property and then hire the Russians (or someone) to get up there an repair it?
  • by Rob T Firefly (844560) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:42AM (#16594396) Homepage Journal
    They should send a temp up there to fix it, perhaps the one who busted the damn thing in the first place. [wikipedia.org] That'd teach him.
  • Replace it... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by ironicsky (569792) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:43AM (#16594402) Homepage Journal
    If its going to cost millions/billions to fix hubble we could just replace it with modern technology. Better yet, we could have a H Prize to replace hubble. Let the private sector try to launch their own. I mean, if they can launch a shuttle to space let them do other things. NASA Cant seem to do it for under a billion.

    • Hubble's replacement is the James Webb Telescope [nasa.gov], and has been in the works for a long time. Slated for launch in 2013, it will have a 6.5 meter primary mirror (Hubble's is 2.4 meters), be optimized for the near-infrared (so it can see through dust clouds, and further back in time and/or farther away), and orbit at the second Lagrange point about a million miles from Earth, instead of right around Earth like Hubble. That means it won't be bothered by light from the Earth, so it can see far dimmer things,
  • Benefit to mankind (Score:3, Interesting)

    by swestcott (44407) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:48AM (#16594488) Homepage
    As the whole world has benefited maybe we could pass around the hat to get this funded
  • by lokedhs (672255) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:50AM (#16594518)
    There are ground-based telescopes that produces much better pictures than what Hubble can produce these days. I believe that the choice to abandon it may very well simply be a result of some simple maths. The same scientific results can be had cheaper by using the VLT [wikipedia.org]. Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article:

    The VLTs are equipped with a large set of instruments permitting observations to be performed from the near-UV to the mid-IR (ie a large fraction of the light wavelengths accessible from the surface of the Earth), with the full range of techniques including high-resolution spectroscopy, multi-object spectroscopy, imaging, and high-resolution imaging. In particular, the VLT has several Adaptive optics systems, which at infrared wavelengths correct for the effects of the atmospheric turbulence, providing images almost as sharp as if the telescope was in space. In the near-IR, the Adaptive Optics images of the VLT are up to 3 times sharper than those of the HST, and the spectroscopic resolution is many times better than Hubble. The VLTs are noted for their high level of observing efficiency and automation.
    • by gerardrj (207690) on Thursday October 26 2006, @11:00AM (#16594708) Journal
      Exactly. In the 16 years since it's launch our technology has improved dramatically. We have learned to make super large mirrors, flexible mirrors, and other such improvements to the optical systems. We can now use a laser and either flexible mirrors or computers to remove the distortion of the atmosphere. We've gained the compute power to build arrays of smaller scopes to build a "virtual" telescope orders of magnitude larger than any single reflector in the array.
      On top of that we've also sent up other spacecraft, or are building them, that dwarf Hubble's capabilities.

      Hubble does have the rather unique ability to stay parked on a single target, continuously, for very long periods of time. No Earth based scope can do that. But again, there are smaller, faster, cheaper craft in service or coming on line soon that will have better imaging and better processing power.

      I don't know that Hubble should be repaired and kept operating, but I do think it should be brought back to Earth for placement in the Smithsonian Air and Space Museum.
  • by SpinyNorman (33776) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:56AM (#16594626)
    I can't imagine NASA doing it for loss of face, but since a Soyuz launch is $5m vs $50M for the shuttle (which is anyway overbooked for the short remainder of it's lifetime), couldn't NASA just pay the Ruskies to take their Hubble repairman up for a day trip?

  • by AIXadmin (10544) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:57AM (#16594656) Homepage
    I love posts like this. I am so glad the poster had all the information NASA officials have in front of them. Plus a distinguished panel of experts to advise them. One minute we say NASA is great for having the foresight to put Hubble up their. Then we rag on them when they think the money could get more bang for the buck somewhere else.
  • The real problem (Score:3, Informative)

    by SnarfQuest (469614) on Thursday October 26 2006, @11:26AM (#16595164)
    As I understand it, the real problem is that a service mission would cost more than a replacement for the Hubble; which would have better optics, improved insturments, better reliability, etc.
  • by macserv (701681) on Thursday October 26 2006, @10:49PM (#16604500)
    I usually refrain, but this post was damned near unreadable. Punctuation and capitalization are important.
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      If all you need to do is pop in a faster CPU and swap out a busted fan, with existing technology that's built and debugged, why not upgrade the 386? Especially since buying a new computer (in this stupid analogy anyway) will take at least a decade or more before it's built, debugged, and working. And besides, the current Hubble successor (JWST) is near IR and loses the visible. And ground-based telescopes don't provide the same quality of spectra that space-based telescopes can, nor can they provide as q
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        The extra costs per unit would be griding a new lens/mirrors and the "shipping" cost into orbit. Other development costs would be incremental. Plus, we would have more eyes in the sky for research.

        Also, along the lines of another poster a fleet of NOAA immaging satalites would rule. Think of a google earth type site getting a high res refresh of the whole earth each week.