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Is SETI a Security Risk?
Posted by
Hemos
on Mon Nov 28, 2005 09:24 AM
from the a-whole-new-level-of-paranoia dept.
from the a-whole-new-level-of-paranoia dept.
Dotnaught writes "Richard Carrigan, a particle physicist at the US Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory in Illinois, fears the Search for Extra-Terrestrial Intelligence (SETI) may be putting the earth at risk. As reported in the Guardian, Carrigan frets that alien radio signals could pose a security risk. The report cites a 2003 paper entitled "Do potential Seti signals need to be decontaminated?" but Carrigan's website has more details. Basically, he's calling for isolation of SETI computers and additional security measures. He writes, "To paraphrase Cocconi and Morrison for the possibility of a malevolent SETI signal ...the probability of a contaminated SETI signal is difficult to estimate; but if we never consider it the chance of infection is not zero."" Frankly, I'm more worried about some phishing malcontent then I am about the Grays, but maybe that's just me.
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Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Insightful)
- Raw signal in memory must bootstrap to status of operating program
- Program must then untangle the inner workings of the host. (Is it possible to now build a diagnosis program to determine the operating set of an unfamiliar computer?)
I'm not a software engineer but... no, wait, I AM a software engineer, so I'm curious, how does this 'virus' execute step 1 [Buffer Overrun & Privilage Escalation] without doing step 2 first [Determine instruction set for system] (Which incidentally requires step one to have been performed first.)As far as I see it, theres as much chance of data in the recieve buffer created by background radiation being a viable 'virus' as there is a deliberate chunk of data will be
This sounds suspiciously like
1) Send malicious code
2)
3) Infect universe (and profit)
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Funny)
Then an armada of warships bearing atomizer rays and a bunch of very annnoyed aliens arrives...
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:3, Funny)
Wait, we all know from Independence Day that the aliens use Mac OS.
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Funny)
"Thank you for calling Microsoft's Genuine Intergalactic Technical Support. If you are experiencing a problem with a factory installed Windows Galaxy edition, please contact your manufacturer.
If you are calling about a non-critical issue, please emit one tachyon burst directed at Microsoft's Genuine Advantage Galactic Transmission satellite.
If you are calling about a security hole that was exploited by the Scourge causing the destruction of half your intergalactic fleet, please wait one (1) business day before targeting Microsoft's campus with your quantum torpedos.
If you are experiencing a total system failure preventing your navagation computer from function and are on a direct collision course with Earth, please wait on the line for a Microsoft Certified Windows Galaxy edition technician. Please note that we are experiencing a high call volume at this time, and you may be on hold for 12-24 hours.
Thank you for calling Microsoft's Genuine Intergalactic Technical Support. Microsoft, what planet do you want to go to today?"
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:4, Funny)
Is that because his PC couldn't deal with numbers that small?
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Informative)
- someone could hack the server and send out malicious code with the next software update
- someone could hack the data stream and inject malicious data into it (assuming there really is such a thing as malicious data, which I find hard to believe).
- someone terrestrial could broadcast malicious data in such a way that the SETI telescopes pick it up and think that it's ET in origin.
- an ET could broadcast malicious data, after having picked up a copy of the SETI software and analyzing it.
- an ET could broadcast malicious data without knowing what the receiver is like (the worry describe in TFA).
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:3, Informative)
I doubt there's a risk of ET hacking SETI@home and pwning the internet; they'd be working completely blind. The risk from alien signals is one that I think was raised by someone in Contact: what if they hack us?
Send down a message, prime number sequences and so forth, describe the periodic table, build a scientific vocabulary, the whole SETI thing. Then begin describing plans for a machine. Mak
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Interesting)
Eliminating rivals in space sounds like a flimsy motive-- though of course you're right to examine it as aliens need not have motives that are by our standards rational.
I don't think that outright trickery is likely, but what about this:
OK so there's one scenario right off the bat. You don't have to assume malevolent aliens, only self-interested ones. Sure, FTL might not exist at all, or may work completely differently. Who cares? When I get a random email with detailed instructions for me to make BIG PROFITS, I don't piece together how exactly it might be scamming me, I just recognize that I have to treat these things with healthy scepticism.
Much as I respect Carl Sagan, his aliens were a little too idealized for my tastes. Then again, I also don't see our system of describing mathematics as a universal. To paraphrase B5 creator JMS: the only universals in the universe are matter, energy and enlightened self-interest.
The age when we say that any advanced civilization must be peaceful, noble and altruistic is thankfully over. Instead, if/when we encounter aliens, let's be reasonable, respectful, and aware that our self interests may not perfectly aligned.
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's like if the Romans built a huge wall and said "That will keep out anyone. It's not possible to breach it." Using our technology, which is 2000 years more advanced, (less, actually) we could fly an B2 bomber over the city and drop a couple 2000 pound bombs. The pinnalce of their most advanced security would last less than 10 seconds against the most basic of our assaults.
I know this is a little different when talking about computer security, but just as the Romans couldn't even imagine in their wildest dreams a B2 bomber, let alone how it could possible get past their impenetrable wall, we can't conceive of the technology that could be used to "infect" our computers. In 2000 years, who knows what kind of power we would have to defeat such a system? We can't know because it's beyond even our wildest imagination.
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Insightful)
And that's the flaw in your B2-Bomber-argument. The aliens would be stuck with using our (extremely primitive) technology. We know pretty well how our computers work, and can figure out most ways to break/hack/crack them ourselves in a short timespan.
It's a bit like using the tools and technologies the Romans had at that time and trying build that B2 bomber.
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:4, Insightful)
If it were possible, within the limits of human technology, to take over the world with a computer virus, we would have seen some indication of it by now.
However, if the aliens had some kind of magic technology that overcame human limitations, using it to take over the world via a computer virus is kind of ridiculous. They could just take over the world directly.
And assuming that there are malicious aliens with technology far beyond ours, we're screwed anyway. So there is really no point in worrying about SETI security holes, or even about aliens in general.
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Insightful)
To use your analogy, its like assaulting a Roman wall in a place where the laws of physics prevent flight.
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:5, Funny)
IIRC the Great Wall's effects expires with the discovery of metallurgy.
Parent
You forgot the obvious... (Score:4, Funny)
Since mankind came about through "Intelligent Design", so will the aliens. And hence it's natural that their Intelligent Design also led them to having Windows (completely independently developed - but still the same thing - it's in our eternally unchangeable intelligently designed genes, remember?)
*smile*
Somehow I wouldn't be quite so surprised if it really turned out the guy would be a creationist...
Parent
Re:Chicken and Egg. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's worse than that - its some stupid nuge who is trying to create a name for themselves by pointing out "potential risks."
We've seen this behaviour before with the whole y2k problem, people using it as an avenue for self-promotion. There were some risks, but they were being addressed; at the same time, people were going ape-shit. Supposedly, planes would fall out of the sky, elevators, water systems, and electrical plants would all stop, etc, and we were told that no amount of work would find enough of
Hmm... Is it just me or is this guy... (Score:5, Insightful)
Granted - once we had contact any alien civilisation could also get into a situation where they could potentially send malware to Earth.
But - isn't Seti right now looking at data from stars a good number of lightyears away? How likely is it that aliens on the off chance of infecting a computer would send out virusses and/or worms that would run on current CPUs and chipsets, using security holes that are current NOW? (Remember - if aliens 10 lightyears away would get hold of enough Earth signals to decode Intel assembly language and to understand Windows security holes, even if they could decipher all that overnight and write a terminal computer virus in another hour - it still took them 10 years to receive the signals from us and it would take another 10 years for them to come back). How likely is it that a virus working on 20 year old hard-/software (including OS and everything) would still work on a large portion of critical infrastructure today?
Given that Seti only checks data, but doesn't try to execute it, shields us even further from the whole thing...
Or - is Mr. Carrigan now assuming that there is an imminent threat of an attack by Bin Laden against the Internet - through Seti@home ?
Now that would make even Bush sound perfectly sane...
Re:Hmm... Is it just me or is this guy... (Score:3, Funny)
Yes, he's clearly a nutjob. If SETI signals contain anything it'll be adverts for penis enlargement.
Eat at Earth (Score:3, Funny)
"Eat at Earth".
And even if they do not want to eat us, who says we won't want to eat them. If Broccoli based aliens land on Earth, I will become a mass serial killer running around with a jar of cheese whiz!
Re:Hmm... Is it just me or is this guy... (Score:3, Informative)
He's a physicist. If you thought the socially inept uber nerd was a dying or dead species, they aren't. Far from it really. Walk around Fermilab's cafeteria at lunch and you can witness some absolutely stunning samples. Even worse are the ones who carry these traits, and think they're far more intelligent than they are. The arrogance these guys can carry is indescribable.
Yes I'm generalizing, but it's hard not to. For every well adjusted, friendly physicist there's at least one
It's just you ;) (Score:4, Insightful)
It would be a nasty trick for an alien civilization to give us the most destructive weapon possible without giving us accompaning social skill's as well. Or we could figuratively be on the 'beads' end in some initial contact scenario.
To quote Morris Berman, "An idea is something you have, an ideology is something that has you.". An old alien civilization out there could just be very good at constructing ideologies. I'm not saying now is the time to consider this chance, rather that it should be considered when alien contact occurs.
Parent
Re:It's just you ;) (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't worry, humanity absolutely does not need any help from alien civilizations for this scenario. "Inventing and using destructive devices (aka weapons)" is something humans are amazingly good at.
An old alien civilization out there could just be very good at constructing ideologies.
See above. If humanity was any better at constructing destructive i
This is ridiculous (Score:5, Funny)
They're thinking all wrong. (Score:5, Funny)
I'm really worried (Score:5, Insightful)
You can thank me for this information (Score:5, Funny)
They also recently developped antitinfoil penetration technology, so those of you who are using this means of protection are now vulnerable.
These beings will stop at nothing to get to the bottom of your colon!
Consider yourselves warned.
WHOA.... (Score:4, Funny)
A classic example ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A classic example ... (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Does this give new meaning to the phrase.... (Score:5, Funny)
Sounds like a job for OpenBSD. (Score:5, Funny)
That'll help prevent interstellar buffer overruns 'sploits!
Either that or we'll send them Theo de Raadt.
Not necessarily from space. (Score:4, Informative)
Thing is you don't need to separate the data, you just need to make the processing software secure, in such a way that data is analysed and never executed, there's no chance of buffer overflow or other potential risks coming from the data. Simple as that.
An Open Letter (Score:5, Funny)
You keep doing particle Physics, and we'll keep doing Computer Science.
Love,
The Computer Scientists
Movie-plot threat (Score:5, Insightful)
It's pretty sad that they're actually wasting brain cycles thinking about threats like this. No, the risk of infection isn't zero. But it's damn close to zero. It isn't zero if you 'secure' SETI systems, either. It isn't even zero if you dismantle the SETI telescopes.
But money spent on this is money better spent elsewhere, practically no matter where else you spend it. This should have been in the 'It's Funny, Laugh' topic.
(Prediction: this will appear on Schneier's blog by end of day tomorrow)
Re:Movie-plot threat (Score:5, Interesting)
People are weird like that. As a locksmith, I tell people almost exactly the above when they ask for a SECOND deadbolt, or for an "unpickable" lock on their cheap, hollow core masonite door. They're trying to defeat movie and TV spies, which don't exist in real life. Real life burglars throw a rock through a rear window. And in fact, real life spies aren't even going to pick the lock, but rather throw a rock through the rear window so it looks like a burglary. But no, people have delusions that there are packs of secret agent type thieves with sophisticated alarm disabling blinkenlights tools and lockpick sets. People watch too much TV.
Parent
Nut job central (Score:3, Insightful)
Has /. become a focal point for all the worlds nut jobs today or something? What with this and the guy asking to move porn onto another port all we need now is one of the monty python crew to do us a silly walk. How do these people get to take control of my pixels?
What's most scary though is that there is a small percentage of people who will believe him. I think those people scare me more now I come to think about it. At least this guy is just trying for his 15 minutes of fame.
His worst fear has probably already happened (Score:5, Insightful)
So
Oh but of course! (Score:3, Insightful)
And he is after all, one of the most reputable names in the computing field today.
Computer scientists argue that to hack a computer, or write a virus that will infect it, requires a knowledge of how the computer and the software it is running work: a computer on Earth is going to be as alien to the aliens as they would be to us. But Dr Carrigan says there is still a risk.There most certainly is a risk: a risk that someone in the government might actually take a particle physicist's word that aliens are trying to hack the Internet (which, given the speed of light, most enlightened civilizations in the galaxy won't find out about for about 200 years, assuming they are listening in the first place).
On the one hand, I don't know why this is a story. This guy is out of his element, and no one should be taking him too seriously (Independence Day [imdb.com] buffs notwithstanding). On the other hand, the chance that people in positions of power with less than two neurons to rub together might take this guy seriously, thereby jeopardizing peaceful scientific research (see Contact [imdb.com]) has me just a bit concerned.
A far greater risk... (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like bad Sci-Fi... (Score:3, Insightful)
Snow Crash? (Score:4, Funny)
GREETING AND HELLO (Score:4, Funny)
Who cares? (Score:4, Funny)
Any aliens that are 10, 100 or 1000 years ahead of us technologically... well, the 10-year-ahead aliens probably know how to wipe out every computer on earth within 2 minutes. The 100 and 1000 years-ahead aliens almost certainly aren't backwards compatible enough.
A virus from data? No, probably not. (Score:3)
This common misconception shows that although Richard Carrigan may be a fine particle physicist, he doesn't really know much about computer viruses. Please, folks... If you're going to cite someone as an "expert", make sure they've at least got a clue about the topic in question.
To properly debunk this person's fearmongering though, let's remember a little program called "crashme":
- Generate a file full of random bits.
- Try to execute that file.
- Repeat from the beginning.
It was a great way to find flaws in the robustness of user space verses system space, back when Linux was young. (A user program should never be able to crash the whole system.) There are two amazing things about this program:A distant civilization will have no knowledge of our computer systems' machine language and it would be impossible for them to guess. There are so many ways we could have arranged such things. Any information coming from them would essentially be random data as far as computer instructions go, even if it contained enough patterns to show that it came from a sentient source.
Nobody executes raw data! Even SETI wouldn't execute their data. They'd analyze it, plot it, and try to decipher it but they're not going to name it "ALIEN.EXE" and try to run it like a program. But what if they did?
Well, this "crashme" program has been doing just that, for more than a decate and on many machines. No viruses yet.
This "SETI virus" scare is just a plot device for a low budget movie. It's a shame that it even made it onto slashdot.
Intergalactic Investment Opportunity! (Score:5, Funny)
CONFIDENTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL
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It doesn't have to be a computer virus... (Score:5, Interesting)
It's hard to predict the form that such a 'virus' might take. Just making up random stuff off the top of my head: they could leave us a story about such irrelevant subjects like the history of an ancient tribe lost in some desert for 40 years but as a result of reading this story the readers' beheviour might be irrevocably changed so that they are no longer capable of understanding basic biology. You simply wouldn't be able to tell merely by skimming the subject matter as the effect would be embedded within hidden triggers. By leaving enough of these subtle 'viruses' spread out through our culture they could bring our civilization to its knees without us even realizing that we've been the victim of alien attack.
Re:Threshold (Score:3, Funny)
..and also psychic. (Score:5, Funny)
There really is no need for remote infiltration of the OS, since high school students have been doing it for years. Why would first (acknowledged) contact be to give a virus to Windows users? It is like pouring salt in the ocean.
Parent
Re:Another type of risk from SETI (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is SETI a Security Risk? for EARTH (Score:3, Insightful)
Then there's absolutely nothing we can do.
The chances of a nearby extraterrestrial race inventing radio at or near the same time as us are so small that we can discount them entirely for purposes of a thought experiment. They would be thousands or millions of years more advanced - or more primitive. If they're more primitive, we'll probably never know about them. If they're that much more advanced, then they could wipe us out without any signifi