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Green Energy From Manhattan's East River
Posted by
michael
on Sat Jul 10, 2004 05:12 PM
from the pcb-heaven dept.
from the pcb-heaven dept.
circletimessquare writes "New York City's waterways are geographically unique in that they force tides from Long Island Sound down the East River in one of the most concentrated, powerful flows on the East Coast. If all goes as planned, a company called Verdant Power will build a $20 million, 10 megawatt underwater turbine field there by late 2005. The turbines spin slowly enough so that they pose no threat to wildlife (har har), are placed in spots where they do not interfere with commercial shipping, and are deep enough to not interfere with recreational boating. About the only drawback to the scheme are the supply shortage periods when the tides are slack. The New York Times has the scoop."
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Very impressive (Score:5, Funny)
What was it? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:What was it? (Score:3, Funny)
Thats because you came during the day, stop by at night, the green stuff will be glowing then.
I don't know about 'green' (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I don't know about 'green' (Score:5, Interesting)
Check this article entitled San Francisco-area garbage generates energy [enn.com].
Parent
Green Energy? (Score:4, Funny)
Materials (Score:5, Funny)
fusion (Score:5, Funny)
wild life friendly turbine? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:wild life friendly turbine? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:wild life friendly turbine? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:wild life friendly turbine? (Score:5, Funny)
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10MW (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:10MW (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, it'll make a dent. Small dent, yes, but so what?
Even a Dubya fanboy like me knows that we need to diversify, instead of bleat and whine.
Re:10MW (Score:3, Insightful)
Tim
Re:10MW (Score:3, Insightful)
That's a lot of pizza
Re:10MW (Score:3, Informative)
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/234
Re:10MW (Score:5, Funny)
wbs.
Parent
Re:10MW (Score:5, Informative)
So, power generation in Manhattan doesn't need to be super cheap or super high capacity, it really just needs to be low-pollution and moderately inexpensive. They're not competing with nuclear or coal or large hydro, they're competing with on-demand natural gas, which is nowhere near as cheap.
Parent
Reminds me of (Score:5, Informative)
Green Indeed (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Green Indeed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Green Indeed (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Green Indeed (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Green Indeed (Score:5, Informative)
The Price-Andersen Act simply allows the government to act as an insurance broker for nuclear power plants. The plants PAY for the insurance, and it only covers small accidents-- maximum liability for the government is something like $10 million. Furthermore, the act allows for priave companies to step in to take over the insurace after a period of some years-- something that private companies have indeed done. (The PA Act has actually made taxpayers money, as plants have paid out more than they have received, just like any successful insurance company. So it doesn't count as subsidy at all.)
As for the "$66 billion" figure, that's even worse. They mean, "The military has spent $66 billion researching nuclear reactors for their own use between 1948 and 1998."
Nuclear power does receive some subsidies, but not many-- especially compared to wind and solar, which are absolutely not cost effective. Coal, the second cheapest method of generating electricity (next to nuclear, unremarkably), receives over a billion dollars a year from the federal government just to support miners who have developed black lung disease. Oil receives billions as well. In fact, anything you can name receives more money than nuclear.
Nuclear power is not popular, and politicians know it. If nuclear power really received these nefarious subsidies, every senator in Congress would be biting at it so s/he could claim to be "fighting for safer power." Do you really think any member of Congress could pass up the chance to guarantee re-election?
(PS-- solar has some nasty hazardous waste products. The panels themselves are about as toxic as cyanide, as measured by LD50, and generous amounts of arsenic are produced as a result of the doping process of the silicon panels. Furthermore, when solar panels electromigrate, that's it-- if you try to recycle them, you end up using more energy than you got out of the panel in the first place. Those shiny toxic squares have to be thrown away.)
IANANT,BIASTGMOLAARR (Not a nuclear technician, but I am studying to get my operator's license at a research reactor.)
Parent
Re:Green Indeed (Score:3, Informative)
It would be nice it you got your facts straight... Most of your statements are outright lies !!
"The Price-Andersen Act simply allows the government to act as an insurance broker for nuclear power plants. The plants PAY for the insurance, and it only covers small accidents-- maximum liability for the government is something like $10 million. Furthermore, the act allows for private companies to step in to take o
Re:Green Indeed (Score:3, Funny)
We import power in BC all the time... (Score:3, Interesting)
That's right, we're power importers in BC. We're just lucky that BC Hydro can literally turn on and off the generators with next to no cost. This lets them, and eventually us, benefit from high priced exports when there's peak power demand elsewhere, balanced against larger amounts of relatively cheap imported power at off-peak times.
I guess my point would be, don't be too proud of power being mostly "clean" hydro - it ma
Question about New York water salinity (Score:4, Interesting)
I'm making a radio broadcasting book, and I had a question about the New York water system that I never quite addressed.
It's on this picture: http://www.usinternet.com/users/kyledrake/newyork- radio.jpg [usinternet.com]
It's an old field strength determination from the 1920s. See the water area below the taller buildings with the '20' strength? Is that water salty, fresh, or a mix of both (salty-leaning, or fresh-leaning even)? The reason I ask, is because if it is salty, it shows with more signifigance the blocking ability of structures (as salt water is very conductive).
Thank you!
that's salty, definitely (Score:5, Informative)
on the right is the east river, which leads to long island sound (all ocean) and behind you, from the picture's perspective, is the atlantic ocean (all ocean)
that spot you are talking about is between the tip of manhattan and governor's island, al ocean water, all the time
Parent
Re:Question about New York water salinity (Score:5, Interesting)
For very high frequencies, like Wi-Fi, the groundwave is considerably less important. With Wi-Fi, the line-of-sight is the most important factor. So you're right if you're thinking about higher frequencies, which are where most of the modern radio systems are operating. My book is about mediumwave (AM band) broadcasting however, so concepts like groundwave still play a pretty important part.
Parent
Interesting... (Score:5, Interesting)
The Usine Maremotice de la Rance is based on the French equivalent of the St Lawrence Bay. This is a place where the tide amplitude is one of the highest in the world.
At low tide, the sea truly is miles away from the shore. I have been there, and it's amazing how far away the ocean can go... and how fast it can come back. Saint Malo, the nearest city, was actually (a few centuries ago) an island at high tide, and people had to wait for the low tides to cross over the sand to the city.
The 'Usine' itself has been pretty successful, and provides 'clean', tide-based electricity to Saint Malo and other cities, but its ecological impact has been underestimated: the Rance, which used to be a clean river is now severely clogged with mud and silt that are not evacuated by the tide, to the detriment of wildlife. Many bird and fish species have left the river for others or have died off completely.
I hope the company that will build the New York project has taken this data into account for its project (which seems to be the case).
Look a little closer to home (Score:5, Informative)
It puts out 20 MW, and is on the Bay of Fundy, where you will find the truly highest tides in the world.
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Highest tides (Score:3, Informative)
very close to st malo is the ras de sein, which can lay claim to having some of the fastest tidal currents on earth, eg 9+ knots (real fun in a 30 foot sailing boat with a max hull speed of 7 knots, even more fun when wind and tide oppose each other... lol
the bristol tides run up the severn,
Great Idea, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
None of the green energy sources can provide the reliable energy that modern society demands. While this one will at least be very predictable, it will only be able to generate power when the tides are right, and that has no relation to peak power usage times. Sometimes the timing will be right, but the rest is wasted.
This will probably get me mod'd Troll, but nuclear power is the best available option, and since we cut research into making it better, we are now behind France (the horror) in nuclear technology.
Despite all the concerns, nuclear is the best choice we have until we can finally find a more efficient way to generate electricity without using steam.
Re:Great Idea, but.. (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Great Idea, but.. (Score:5, Insightful)
but just think for a moment--solar still generates SOME power on cloudy days. turbines can produce some energy as well on the days that arent ideal. i dont know at what point turbines become useless, but it has to be a pretty calm day.
The point is it mitigate your resources in many locations. if every roof had had solar panels over their shingles, and every telephone/power pole had a mini turbine ontop of it, then i ask you--how often is it pitch black and dead calm out EVERYWHERE--night time?--even then the clam is usually localised.
clouds move, and so do wind patterns. energy can be shipped from the sunny spots to the cloudy, and so on and so forth.
Excess energy from all of those turbines and roofs---well if we ever get to a hydrogen economy--there wont be such a thing--it will go toward electrolosis for hydrogen production.
speratic nuclear plants can pickup the energy needs of nighttime hours and such--hell if it was a true hydrogen economy, people would just use some hyrdogen to make their electricity, also, maybe we'd see an end to the excessive use of streetlights littering towns and cities. Their great untill about 10:00 pm, but cmon, after that its an annoyance.
nuclear has and will continue to have its place, but in my opinion it should be used as a backup for when the more "green" methods cant put out enough juice.
Parent
10 MW and all the trouble with salt water. (Score:5, Informative)
sell even bigger ones (4.5MW I believe.)
These turbines takes a lot of manpower to keep running. Stuff needs to be repaired every month or so. I can't start to imagine the problems one would have when trying to put them down into the salty waters of East River!
But then again: One have to try and get the technology running. That was how the windturbine-buisness got started, too, and that is big buisness these days.
East River (Score:3, Funny)
NTITE
Other benefits (Score:3, Funny)
Cost of saving electricity compared to making it. (Score:5, Insightful)
There isn't *ANY* power generation system that doesn't have some kind of impact. The issue is whether this has a more acceptable impact than the other ways to get that much power.
The problem I have with these projects is that if you spent the same amount of money on energy saving plans, you'd end up with the same results - but with LESS environmental impact - not more.
For example, I live in Texas where a large fraction of everyone's electricity bill is paying for airconditioning and heating. By spending about an extra 5% on the price of my house, I ended up with about three times better thermal insulation factor compared to a typical Texas home. As a result (since A/C and Heat are such large fraction of electric bills here), it's no suprise that my electric bills are about half what my friends and neighbours are getting for similar sized houses. (My house is built with this stuff: http://oikos.com/companies/grnblock.html)
Crunching the numbers, my additional 5% up-front cost is repayed in about 5 years...and the house should last at least 25 years so this is a really good deal.
However, getting people to pay that 5% up-front cost is HARD. (Why else would so few houses be built that way?)
But what if the government or the electricity generation companies paid you to add that extra insulation and took the cost of it back from your fuel bill savings in the form of a tax of some kind? An initial outlay of $20M would halve the electicity consumption of about 5,000 houses like mine. That's about the same as building a 3.5MW powerstation. Not as good as the 10MW one that they are planning to build in NY for $20M - but mine lasts for 25 years without maintenance, labor, etc - has not technical risk and has a really GOOD effect on the environment by reducing the net amount of electricity that has to be generated.
That's just one example - I'm sure there are others.
TANSTAAFL (Score:4, Insightful)
Also known as conservation of energy.
The wind-turbine people said "oh, it couldn't possibly make any difference." Now - surprise - there's some evidence wind power screws with wind patterns.
The tidal-power people are saying "it couldn't possibly make any difference" and give figures like "the entire planet's energy needs could be filled twice over by the ocean's tides". Except that actually getting that much energy out of the ocean would involve, oh, stopping the tides, and I don't think anyone's claimed that won't cause serious problems.
So this generator produces 10MW, does it? Where's the power coming from? Answer: it's slowing down the river. Will this cause future problems? I have absolutely no idea, but it's something that would be nice to find out.
Whenever someone comes up with a source of untapped power, think for a second and figure out where the energy is actually coming from.
Re:Good News (Score:5, Interesting)
The only problem is that because the source is tidal, the availability of the power cycles around the clock once per orbit of the moon. Depending on the tides, the power may or may not be available during periods of peak demand, so you still need either an alternative source of power or a means of storing the power until it's needed.
Parent
good points, except... (Score:4, Informative)
but wait there's more: as mentioned in the article, the turbines swivel on their base and face the incoming tides, then swivel on their base and face the outgoing tides... so really, that's FOUR TIMES per every 25 hour tidal cycle, so that's 6 hours 15 minutes between high and low tide, the vast middle period of which the turbines are cranking away
as mentioned in the article, there's only roughly 6 hours every day when the turbines aren't moving... and those 6 hours are cut up into 4 equal pieces, equally spaced apart, in a 25 hour cycle, which means that every day, the slack periods shift an hour
so the devil's in the details, but it certainly means that this power source isn't as transitory as you initially described it, although it is still most definitely cyclical, just on a much tighter schedule than it originally appears to be
Parent
Re:Good News (Score:3, Interesting)
I recently read a book about the 1968 power outage in NY, and back then they had 6 lines w/ about 500 megawatts each (or thereabouts). I imagine it might be somewhat more now, but that gives you an idea.
Re:Good News (Score:3, Informative)
According to Business Council of New York [bcnys.org], they have 35,847 megawatts, but need another 9,000 megawatts. So make that 45,000 kilowatts in total.
Re:from the pcb-heaven dept???? (Score:5, Interesting)
just so you know, PCB's often build up on road surfaces, having been expelled in small quantities from vehicle exhaust.
That gets washed into the surrounding drainages
In Victoria BC, environmentalists are trying to sue the city for allowing PCB's to enter the surrounding ocean. Victoria doesn't dump PCB's. The source was found to be the runoff from roads.
Victoria isn't even a big city.
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Re:from the pcb-heaven dept???? (Score:4, Informative)
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Somewhere in Pakistan.. (Score:3, Funny)
the difference is like this: (Score:5, Insightful)
liberals tell you what to do with your money (fiscal liberals), but they don't tell you how you should live your life
so liberals lose monetarily, and conservatives lose socially
and therefore, liberals are friends of the poor, whie conservatives are friends of the rich
it's a choice you make, which hypocrisy bothers you less, and frankly, i like people who tell me what to do with my wallet a lot more than i like people who tell me how to behave in the bedroom
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