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Pigeons' Bandwidth Advantage Quantified

Posted by timothy on Wed Mar 31, 2004 05:58 PM
from the breed-knoppix-pigeons dept.

An anonymous reader submits "A well documented test took place in the north of Israel, in presence of several dozen Internet geeks and experts. During the test, 3 homing pigeons carried 4 GB (gigabytes) for 100 km distance, achieving, what apparently looks as pigeons' world record in data transfer to a given distance. Bandwidth achieved by the pigeons was 2.27 Mbps...Transferring a similar volume of information through a common uplink of ADSL line would have taken no less than 96 hours..."

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Pigeons' Bandwidth Advantage Quantified More

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But... (Score:5, Funny)

by michaelhood (667393) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @05:59PM (#8730829)

the DSL doesn't shit on my car.
- Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by Capt'n Hector (650760) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:19PM (#8731093)
  
  Apparently you don't have comcast.
  
  Parent
- Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by rjelks (635588) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:25PM (#8731155) Homepage
  
  I'm picturing what a Denial of Service attack would be like.....Alfred Hitchcock's "The Birds" comes to mind.
  
  -
  
  Parent
  - Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by John Hurliman (152784) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:54PM (#8731447) Homepage
    
    Actually if the pigeons were the communication medium, a denial of service might be a shotgun.
    
    Parent
    - Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)
      
      by DigiShaman (671371) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:37PM (#8731787) Homepage
      
      Na...that would be a firewall. Wanna guess what ports I'm gonna close? ;)
      
      Parent
- - Re:But...But... (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by FuzzyBad-Mofo (184327) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [dabyzzuf]> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:19PM (#8731668)
    
    Sometimes they come with notes attached.. it's like fortune cookies with wings!
    
    Parent
Back of envalope (Score:5, Interesting)

by brejc8 (223089) * on Wednesday March 31 2004, @05:59PM (#8730832) Homepage Journal

2.27 Mbps = 0.28375 MBps
4 GB / 0.28375 MBps = 14097 secs
14097 secs = 3h 54Mins
100km / 3h 54Mins = 25.53 km/h
25.53 km/h = 15.86 mph

Not bad for laden little pigeons
- Pong (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by Fammy2000 (612663) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:03PM (#8730912) Homepage
  
  3h 54Mins
  
  Ping time is twice that. Doh!
  
  Parent
  - Re:Pong (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by DeadPrez (129998) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:42PM (#8731339) Homepage
    
    Yeah, even with client prediction, Quake is going to be a bit of a bitch!
    
    Parent
- - Re:latency v. bandwidth (Score:5, Informative)
    
    by irokitt (663593) <<archimandrites-iaur> <at> <yahoo.com>> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:11PM (#8731607)
    
    This is a debate that nobody will ever win. I was taught that bandwidth was the difference between lower/upper frequencies on a wire, i.e.
    "The numerical difference between the upper and lower frequencies of a band of electromagnetic radiation, especially an assigned range of radio frequencies." (thank you Google).
    And under that definition, these pigeons have no bandwidth (unless you're counting the frequency at which they flap their wings ;).
    
    The Jargon File [catb.org] says
    "Used by hackers (in a generalization of its technical meaning) as the volume of information per unit time that a computer, person, or transmission medium can handle. "Those are amazing graphics, but I missed some of the detail -- not enough bandwidth, I guess." Compare low-bandwidth. This generalized usage began to go mainstream after the Internet population explosion of 1993-1994. 2. Attention span. 3. On Usenet, a measure of network capacity that is often wasted by people complaining about how items posted by others are a waste of bandwidth."
    
    Parent
  - - - Re:latency v. bandwidth (Score:5, Informative)
        
        by Mnemia (218659) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:21PM (#8731681)
        
        What you just defined bandwidth by is exactly the same definition I used. Bandwidth is the amount of data that can be transmitted per unit time. The parent poster was only wrong about his statement that bandwidth would be halved if distance (and thus latency) were doubled. *That* is incorrect, because the rate you can transmit data at is not affected by the distance to the receiving station. He would be correct if he said that link utilization would be halved for the same amount of data. But bandwidth is constant.
        
        I was just saying that what is doubled in this case is the pipe capacity and latency; the bandwidth part stays the same.
        
        Parent
new firewall technology (Score:5, Funny)

by Triumph The Insult C (586706) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:00PM (#8730846) Homepage Journal

12 gauge shotgun i'm applying for the patent right now
- Re:new firewall technology (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by GnuHaiku (649058) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:08PM (#8730967)
  
  12 gauge shotgun i'm applying for the patent right now
  Wow! That gives a new meaning to the error message "Carrier Lost"
  
  Parent
Mandatory joke (Score:5, Funny)

by davebarz (546161) * <(david) (at) (barzelay.net)> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:00PM (#8730849) Homepage

There will be at least ten comments that say (even though it's a pigeon and not a swallow): "Was it African, or European?"
let's get this joke out of the way early (Score:5, Funny)

by stephenb (18235) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:00PM (#8730851) Homepage

the relevant rfc [ietf.org]
- Re:let's get this joke out of the way early (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by cbv (221379) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:12PM (#8731026) Homepage
  
  RFC1149 was updated by RFC2549 [ietf.org] in 1999.
  
  Parent
Sure (Score:5, Interesting)

by Neil Blender (555885) <neilblender@gmail.com> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:00PM (#8730855)

Fill up a cargo jet with full up hard drives and I'd bet you get really good bandwidth.
One of those things that shouldn't surprise but... (Score:5, Interesting)

by Space cowboy (13680) * on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:00PM (#8730860) Journal

It's a truism within the London-based Post-production industry (pretty much all located within a square mile of Soho, central London) that the bandwidth of a bunch of RAID arrays in a transit van is pretty much unbeatable, even with the fast networks that post-houses have between themselves... transferring physical media used to be called 'sneakernet' when walking across the room, it's just been scaled up slightly :-)

I'm quite impressed that a pigeon can do 100km in 2.5 hours though, I had no idea they were *that* fast...

Simon
- Re:One of those things that shouldn't surprise but (Score:5, Interesting)
  
  by afidel (530433) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:10PM (#8731003)
  
  Yep, and I believe it was one of the guys from MS Research that said he could buy new servers with RAID arrays and send them cross country for less than the cost of a network link that could support the same kind of data transfer =)
  
  Parent
  - Re:One of those things that shouldn't surprise but (Score:5, Informative)
    
    by LostCluster (625375) * on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:44PM (#8731365) Homepage
    
    When a Clear Channel radio station changes formats and therefore needs a large volume of music on site quickly, they usually send a server that is pre-loaded with the new format worth of music on HDs, and the studio just plugs that into their network. This also gives them the capability to change the format overnight without anybody at the studio complex needing advanced notice, so that soon-to-be-unemployed DJs don't see it coming and therefore leave the station a few days early to ruin the transition... the UPS delivery of the new music comes in a non-descript cardboard box which can be scheduled to be on the site just hours before the changeover happens.
    
    Parent
- Re:One of those things that shouldn't surprise but (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by kfg (145172) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:46PM (#8731392)
  
  Actually, that's a working pace for a pigeon. They were working hard, but not really what you could call "trying." Birds are fast.
  
  Mind you a duck will overhaul a pigeon. That fat body is all wing flapping muscle. A duck is built to fly fast, high and for days at a time if needed. A duck in fear of its life can break 100 kph in level flight. An Eider just trying to get somewhere in a hurry for no particular reason has been clocked at 76 kph. That's the current officially confirmed record.
  
  Nevermind the falcon that eats the pigeon creating packet loss.
  
  I have no idea what the achievable bandwidth of a duck is though. They could deliver data intercontinetally. Having to wait through migratory periods would probably kill it pretty good.
  
  KFG
  
  Parent
Protocol stack (Score:5, Funny)

by DRUNK_BEAR (645868) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:01PM (#8730867)

Finally, I can start implementing my MORSE OVER IP OVER PIGEON CARRIER protocol stack!!
Time to switch (Score:5, Funny)

by unbiasedbystander (660703) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:01PM (#8730869)

That's it, I'm switching to PSL. (Pigeon Subscriber Line)
What about packet loss? (Score:5, Funny)

by Jack Zombie (637548) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:01PM (#8730877)

You'd lose both a huge amount of your data and your only connection should something happen to those pigeons. Still, it's more reliable than AOL.
plop plop plop (Score:5, Funny)

by frostyboy (221222) <benoc@alum.m i t . edu> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:02PM (#8730884) Homepage

Insert obligatory joke here about "dropping packets"....
MD5 hash... (Score:5, Funny)

by addie (470476) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:02PM (#8730897)

I feel sorry for the pigeon who needs to be hashed on the other end to check if it's the same one... that's gotta hurt.
What, no packet loss... (Score:5, Funny)

by GeneralEmergency (240687) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:02PM (#8730898) Journal

...induced by hungry hawks?
at the risk of getting shat on: (Score:5, Funny)

by t_allardyce (48447) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:03PM (#8730901) Journal

Try wiretapping that you FBI bitches
Fetch me porn (Score:5, Funny)

by superpulpsicle (533373) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:04PM (#8730918)

Now if I can train my pets to fetch me playboys from local 7-11s, I am as good as without broadband.
It begins... (Score:5, Insightful)

by stevenbdjr (539653) <steven@mrchuckles.net> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:04PM (#8730920) Homepage

Is it already April 1st somewhere?
- Re:It begins... (Score:5, Insightful)
  
  by Mr. Sketch (111112) * <mister.sketch@gma i l . c om> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:21PM (#8731122)
  
  Slashdot is on GMT and this was posted at 22:58 GMT and right now it's 23:22 GMT [timeanddate.com] so we still have a few more minutes before official April 1st as far as Slashdot is concerned. However, it is already April 1st where the story originated (Israel).
  
  Parent
Pigeon DNS (Score:5, Funny)

by Doesn't_Comment_Code (692510) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:06PM (#8730950)

That's all fine and good if you know where you're sending your packets. But what if you have to do a DNS look up? Then you have to send several scout pigeons to the nearest aviary which will in turn send a pigeon back with a map of where to send your data pigeons.

And there's a whole other issue with those bastard Verisign Pigeons, but I'm not going to get into that now.

There's also a risk of packet sniffers who use various means to down your pigeons and read your data (no router protection).

And if they do happen to down your pigeon, they can give it new data and send it on its way as if it came from your IP (iniating pigeon). WATCH OUT CREDIT CARDS!

The solution of course is to use Pretty Good Pigeons to protect your data.
Fat Pipe Pigeons.. (Score:5, Funny)

by kortex (590172) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:08PM (#8730968)

..but can they stream?
Well, DUH! (Score:5, Funny)

by purduephotog (218304) <hirsch AT inorbit DOT com> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:09PM (#8730993) Homepage Journal

The Worlds Record for Data Transfer in a Station Wagon" [dlttape.com]

Basically, a station wagon of 35 gig tapes from SETI is driven to it's destination. Takes 16 hrs to fill 1 tape.

Although it is very humorous to see pigeons used, they are still prone to packet failure (automatic weapons fire).
The RIAA and MPAA... (Score:5, Funny)

by plnrtrvlr (557800) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:28PM (#8731194)

...is trying to turn all of our isp's into Stool Pigeons anyways.
Big deal! (Score:5, Funny)

by greg_barton (5551) * <greg_bartonNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:29PM (#8731206) Homepage Journal

I trrew my DVD collection across the room yesterday. That's 1 terabyte per second, right?
but the pigeon carrier signal can be attacked (Score:5, Interesting)

by circletimessquare (444983) <.circletimessquare. .at. .gmail.com.> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:30PM (#8731220) Homepage

The ancient sport of "The pigeon war, better known as kash al-hamam, involves having opponents keep their flocks up circling in the sky as they try to lure each other's pigeons into their flocks." [lebanonwire.com]

So the pigeon carrier signal can be hijacked, and data can be stolen in a new kind of man-in-the-middle type attack specific to the pigeon protocol.

Additionally, this type of attack is freighted with geopolitical intrigue: this pigeon war sport is practiced in Lebanon, which, being a place of conflict with Israel, renders yet another dimension of threat to the robustness and security of the pigeon carrier signal.
No fair... (Score:5, Funny)

by j-turkey (187775) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:32PM (#8731241) Homepage

During the test, 3 homing pigeons carried 4 GB (gigabytes) for 100 km distance

Not a fair comparison against DSL...they multiplexed the pigeons. This is just more anti-DSL FUD
;P
Noteworthy incompatibility: (Score:5, Funny)

by diesel66 (254283) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:36PM (#8731278)

"The technology eliminated the need for cat 5..."

In fact, I would recommend not using ANY kind of cat technologies with this protocol.
- Re:packet loss? (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by oGMo (379) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:02PM (#8730882)
  
  the response time for packet loss is prohibitive...
  
  But oh so tasty!
  
  ;-)
  
  Parent
  - Re:packet loss? (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by Anti_Climax (447121) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:19PM (#8731095)
    
    "Pigeons... Pigeons are good too. Sometimes, they come with notes attached. It's like a fortune cookie with wings!"
    
    If You don't know what I'm talking about, dust off your copy of GTA3 and tune into Chatterbox...
    
    Parent
- - No Blackadder quotes yet? (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by pjt33 (739471) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:50PM (#8731419)
    
    We didn't receive any messages, and Captain BlackAdder did not shoot this delicious, plump-breasted pigeon.
    
    Parent
- Re:Lets see what happens if... (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by Mr. Bad Example (31092) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:15PM (#8731053) Homepage
  
  Lets see how far those flying rats get with 4 GB of floppies attached to their frickin' heads.
  
  We can't attach them there.
  
  That's where the frickin' lasers go.
  
  Parent
- Re:My car is better (Score:5, Insightful)
  
  by DrWhizBang (5333) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:17PM (#8731076) Homepage Journal
  
  I can throw 10,000 DVDs in my trunk, and drive 100km in an hour
  
  How long does it take you to load 10,000 DVDs in your trunk? Not to suggest that you still wouldn't beat the pigeons, but I don't think your time would be as good as you are hoping.
  
  Would that be considered "great bandwidth"?
  
  Yes, but that latency would not be considered so great.
  
  Besides, if they can use 3 pigeons, why not compare it to 3 DSL lines?
  
  You could, or you could compare one pigeon with dial-up. Or you could compare with an 18-wheeler instead of the trunk of your car.
  Lighten up - this is a great hack! And better than another SCO story.
  
  Parent
- Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by Trejkaz (615352) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:19PM (#8731091) Homepage
  
  Absolutely, I've been using avian carriers for my connection for years, and never had a #%!@#70824645[CARRIER LOST]
  
  Parent
- Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by stephenisu (580105) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:19PM (#8731094)
  
  What is the air speed velocity... um... I mean Data Transfer rate of a homing pigeon...
  
  Parent
- Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)
  
  by schmink182 (540768) <schmink182@@@yahoo...com> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:34PM (#8731765) Homepage
  
  The problem with pigeons is that they don't scale well over large distances. Not only does packet delivery take much longer for when distance is increased, but reliability goes way down, too.
  So while regular wired methods might not work nearly as quickly over short distances, they're much better to be used internationally.
  Oh wait, what's that foot mean next to the article...?
  
  Parent
  - Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT (651184) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:39PM (#8731805) Homepage Journal
    
    but reliability goes way down, too.
    The big problem to my mind is cat-in-the-middle attacks.
    
    Parent
- - - - Re:Ha! (Score:5, Informative)
        
        by daveashcroft (321122) on Wednesday March 31 2004, @06:51PM (#8731433)
        
        NOT by GMT...its now 00.51am on 1st April 2004! The world doesnt run on yankee time! ;-)
        
        Parent
- - Re:The lag will be a problem, though... (Score:5, Funny)
    
    by the_mad_poster (640772) <shattoc@adelphia.com> on Wednesday March 31 2004, @07:51PM (#8731889) Homepage Journal
    
    But I think there is work on extending the TCP/IP protocols for interplanetary missions, so timeouts etc might be OK?
    
    I'm pretty sure you'd get 100% packet loss trying to use avian carriers for interplanetary communication.
    
    I guess when the bird died, it would send an ICMP message back about the timeout by falling on your head.
    
    Parent

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Pigeons' Bandwidth Advantage Quantified

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But... (Score:5, Funny)

Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)

Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)

Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)

Re:But... (Score:5, Funny)

Re:But...But... (Score:5, Funny)

Back of envalope (Score:5, Interesting)

Pong (Score:5, Funny)

Re:Pong (Score:5, Funny)

Re:latency v. bandwidth (Score:5, Informative)

Re:latency v. bandwidth (Score:5, Informative)

new firewall technology (Score:5, Funny)

Re:new firewall technology (Score:5, Funny)

Mandatory joke (Score:5, Funny)

let's get this joke out of the way early (Score:5, Funny)

Re:let's get this joke out of the way early (Score:5, Funny)

Sure (Score:5, Interesting)

One of those things that shouldn't surprise but... (Score:5, Interesting)

Re:One of those things that shouldn't surprise but (Score:5, Interesting)

Re:One of those things that shouldn't surprise but (Score:5, Informative)

Re:One of those things that shouldn't surprise but (Score:5, Funny)

Protocol stack (Score:5, Funny)

Time to switch (Score:5, Funny)

What about packet loss? (Score:5, Funny)

plop plop plop (Score:5, Funny)

MD5 hash... (Score:5, Funny)

What, no packet loss... (Score:5, Funny)

at the risk of getting shat on: (Score:5, Funny)

Fetch me porn (Score:5, Funny)

It begins... (Score:5, Insightful)

Re:It begins... (Score:5, Insightful)

Pigeon DNS (Score:5, Funny)

Fat Pipe Pigeons.. (Score:5, Funny)

Well, DUH! (Score:5, Funny)

The RIAA and MPAA... (Score:5, Funny)

Big deal! (Score:5, Funny)

but the pigeon carrier signal can be attacked (Score:5, Interesting)

No fair... (Score:5, Funny)

Noteworthy incompatibility: (Score:5, Funny)

Re:packet loss? (Score:5, Funny)

Re:packet loss? (Score:5, Funny)

No Blackadder quotes yet? (Score:5, Funny)

Re:Lets see what happens if... (Score:5, Funny)

Re:My car is better (Score:5, Insightful)

Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)

Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)

Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)

Re:Ha! (Score:5, Funny)

Re:Ha! (Score:5, Informative)

Re:The lag will be a problem, though... (Score:5, Funny)

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