Slashdot is powered by your submissions, so send in your scoop

 


Forgot your password?
Close
typodupeerror
×
Science Technology

NASA's Sensor Web 89

Posted by michael from the finding-the-martians dept.
ddtstudio writes "PC Mag has a story about the Sensor Web: 'a cutting-edge application of networked sensor technology currently on the fast track at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL).' Not only a new way to test tech, but also perhaps a pervasive and inexpensive way to explore remote places such as Antarctica -- or Mars."
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

NASA's Sensor Web More

NASA's Sensor Web

Comments Filter:

  • Interesting technology (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mjmalone ( 677326 ) * on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:05AM (#6652930) Homepage
    Yet another new development from NASA that could have a huge impact on daily life. If these devices were strategically located worldwide it seems like much more accurate weather pattern predictions could be made. Low cost weather stations that can communicate back to a central node could automatigically predict and track weather patterns around the globe. Maybe one day we will actually be able to rely on the local weather forcasts!
    • Maybe one day we will actually be able to rely on the local weather forcasts!

      Why? They seem to be reasonably accurate these days. I have a kernel module that uses them as a random number generator.

    • Re:Interesting technology (Score:5, Insightful)

      by demonbug ( 309515 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:17AM (#6652976) Journal
      Yet another new development from NASA that could have a huge impact on daily life. If these devices were strategically located worldwide it seems like much more accurate weather pattern predictions could be made. Low cost weather stations that can communicate back to a central node could automatigically predict and track weather patterns around the globe.


      We can already track weather patterns all over the planet. The trouble is that this does not really solve the problem of predicting what will happen in the future - there are simply too many unkown factors affecting weather patterns for us to understand how and why they do what they do at this point. This isn't to say that a worldwide network of these semsors wouldn't be helpful, I just don't think they would solve the problems we have - satellites already give us a lot of worldwide data, but our weather forecasts beyond a few days out are still pretty unreliable (and often over much shorter time periods). If we want better weather forecasting we need to put more effort into figuring out all the factors that affect weather, which will probably require huge leaps in processing power over what is currently available - many of the world's most powerful supercomputers are already used for atmospheric modelling.

      • Re:Interesting technology (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mpthompson ( 457482 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @02:58AM (#6653254)
        Sensor webs are not used so much for predicting weather as they are for inexpensively recording a fairly wide range of environmental conditions at a resolution (temporal, geographic, etc.) far greater than can be achieved by satellite monitoring.

        For instance, a sensor web could be spread over a 100 square mile area around a waste dump to help determine the regional impact of high carbon dioxide concentrations and other gasses leaching into the surrounding environment on a seasonal basis.

        Or, another type of sensor web could be setup in a metropolitan area to measure the impact of environmental pollution laws and programs before and after they are implemented. For instance, in the San Francisco Bay Area, does a "spare the air" marketing campaign have a material impact on air quality within a few hours of being broadcast? Or, would other types of campaigns to achieve the same goals be more effective. It seems that an appropriately configured sensor web could provide firm data to answer such difficult questions.

        Predicting rain next week is a very small aspect to the overall benefit of developing low-cost, commodity sensors that can be deployed in the manner described in the article. The exciting part is the technology is standardized, inexpensive, redundant, and easy to configure to continuously measure the specific aspects of an environment at whatever resolution is required.
        • The applications in studying severe weather situations with technology like this are astounding. With severe weather, such as tornadoes, it is almost impossible to have a moblie doppler setup near the storm. If a small RADAR system were to be attached to a node such as this (though the cost and size of such an idea may prohibit an idea like this with current technology), and the dispersal rate was large enough, then environmental data never before seen of tornadic activity could be captured and relayed to
        • if the data - air temp, pressure and humidity - was collated - and processed much better weather models could be done. A bit of a Catch-22 here - you don't know what the local weather is like over time, so you cannot predict it - particularly what affect local topography - most models work at a granularity of about 20km*20km. See the recent /. story about (IBM?) local forecasting - has some links.

          And the stakes are actually huge - about 20% of the US economy would benefit from weather derivatives, and en

      • We can already track weather patterns all over the planet. The trouble is that this does not really solve the problem of predicting what will happen in the future - there are simply too many unkown factors affecting weather patterns for us to understand how and why they do what they do at this point.

        Isn't the real problem that weather patterns are a chaotic system? You probably heard of the "butterfly effect": a butterfly flapping its wings in Tahiti can produce a tornado in Kansas. So, even if we knew

    • This technology isn't as useful in meteorology as it might first seem. Knowing what happens on the ground is only part of the picture.

      At least in severe weather, what's going on above the surface is very important. For example, it's important to know if there's wind shear. This is winds moving in significantly different directions or at different speeds at different levels, which leads to rotation. It's very important to severe storms. And it's also very important to know if there's any inversions, such as
    • NASA is a bunch of idiots and going about this all wrong. Sensors? Distributed Computing? Modeling? Algorithms? Fooey.

      As everyone knows, a free efficient market will factor in all knowledge and forecase everything within seconds.

      This is a terrible waste of taxpayer money so long as we can trade Orange Juice, Pork Belly, and Osama Bin Laden Futures.

  • traffic applications (Score:4, Insightful)

    by spamchang ( 302052 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:08AM (#6652940) Journal
    i was thinking you could set up a network of these at traffic intersections to determine the optimal stoplight pattern. but has anything already solved that?
    • Here in Toronto (and probably same elsewhere) they already have inductive detectors buried at most grid-road lights to monitor traffic flow and control the lights.
      • In Ottawa they even have small ones marked with a row of 3 dots that your bicycle can trip.
        • Now that's a smart application of technology! I guess ugly bags of mostly water pedestrians will have to continue using the button. Some intersections won't give a walk signal at all unless the button is pressed. Bad application of tech, especially in winter when the pole is surrounded by snowbank.

          The city (with IBM) has fitted a number of intersections with audio walk signals for north-south, east-west. Verbal signals would have been more interesting: "You've got 2 seconds left, run you sucker!" (Perhaps

    • Hell, why not put a sensor web in a major metropolitan sewer system? Who knows what you'd turn up . . .

      Pizza time!!!
    • IANATE (I am not a Traffic Engineer), but I am the son of one. As somebody already replied to you, they have loops under the asphalt at most intersections. They're basically big metal detectors (which always made me want to try to degaus someone's car so they wouldn't trip the signals). They're hooked into signal boxes on the corners and sometimes into central monitoring and control centers. They are used primarily to control signals rather than modeling traffic flow for study purposes (for that they mos

  • NASA's Web Sensoring (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:09AM (#6652946)
    NASA's sensoring the web!?!?!?

    Quick, call the EFF!!! ;-)

  • They need to be more outspoken (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mao che minh ( 611166 ) * on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:11AM (#6652950) Journal
    Is it just me, or does NASA tend to drop bomb shells on the public out of the blue? Rarely are NASAs projects made *largely* public during progress, but rather only at fruition.

    NASA might win more more public approval if they loudly proclaimed their endeavours while they worked on them. As it stands, only their failures get much notice.

    • Well, I understand how good PR can affect the funding (or lack thereof) of NASA, they are scientists at heart. Scientists tend to have a habit of being very quiet about their work for the most part. Perhaps it comes from the focus on the project, or the desire to avoid exposing an idea that failed in experimentation, but that is the way they are. Personally, I would rather NASA devote their budget to doing the work they currently do, rather than wasting time with pleasing the public.
      • Let's face it though, pleasing the public and sparking it's interest makes you money, and makes it more likely that people will approve your funding "just because". When you are dealing with things that are obscure to the public but are in reality highly critical, winning public approval should be a top priority. Just hire a few really good PR people, that's all.
      • You make an excellent point. I would hope that NASA spens their time/budget doing their work instead of pleasing the public. However I also would think that its probably better that they don't try to let the public know about everything they do. I am willing to bet they try so many different angles at a project that a good precentage of the puclic would not agree with (maybe even not understand) all of them. Its easier to make the masses see that you have done something, than it is to make them see why
    • Ah, but what happens when they announce some great new project that ends up not working anywhere near as well as they'd thought?
    • It could be that they've invented the technology, and now they're looking for applications. The Mars application is fine, but most of the Earth ones sound like "Let's put them in the field and monitor .. stuff". And then what? Yes, I know that once they've got the data from the tests, they'll have better idea of uses, but maybe they're looking for suggestions?

      How about an air quality net spread across a city? That could be useful in detecting where local polluters are, and when they're doing it.

    • Maybe these bombshells could be to sway the attention away from the past failures they've had, or perhaps to divert attention from some bombshell about to be dropped with that last shuttle crash. It could be NASA is just trying to maintain a favorable disposition with the general public since congress has drastically slashed their budget for the past decade+

    • Re:They need to be more outspoken (Score:5, Funny)

      by mattkime ( 8466 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @02:36AM (#6653196)

      Isn't that the way we want it to work? "Today NASA received transmissions from what appears to be intelligent lifeforms! Scientists are working around the clock to decode their communications which appear to be mostly grunts and whistles."

      ....two weeks later...

      "Sorry, it was a hip hop video transmission that bounced off the moon and back to earth."

    • NASA might win more more public approval if they loudly proclaimed their endeavours while they worked on them.

      But vaporware is a bitch, when it comes back to bite you in the arse. If programs get cancelled, the cry-wolf factor comes into play and nobody pays attention to their proclamations anymore.

  • Just say no to Sensorship (Score:3, Funny)

    by CraigoFL ( 201165 ) <slashdot@@@kanook...net> on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:19AM (#6652982)
    I don't care whether it's NASA, libraries, Homeland Security, or the Chinese government, media sensorship is wrong; it hurts everyone's freedom when you sensor the web.

    Bad spellers of the world untie!

    • On a more serious note, the same people who are interested in censorship might also be interested in sensor nets. Imagine a sensor net deployed nationwide or even just in our urban centers. Any agency or organization that deploys the network can easily track where anyone in the area is or going. I've been told by my professor that sensor networks were deployed in Iraq. Since there's a good amount of deserts over there, it is in many ways the ideal place for sensor nets. As they become smaller and cheap

  • Yet another reason for IPV6 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by under_score ( 65824 ) <.mishkin. .at. .berteig.com.> on Saturday August 09, 2003 @01:20AM (#6652985) Homepage

    These things should have Internet presense, of course. Otherwise what are they really good for? Given the sort of things they might be used for, I can see 4 billion IP addresses being used up real quick! And putting them on the Internet seems like a really small step from what is described in the article (I didn't follow the rest of the links... maybe they are already doing this?).

    If this sort of thing becomes ubiquitous, they could be really useful for a lot of things that we don't tend to like: e.g. surveillance.

  • Bad Manners! (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    So NASA is eventually planning to drop pods all over Mars? I think that's extremely bad manners. After all, look at all the havoc it causes in those movies when alien pods come to Earth!

    Think of the Martians. Won't somebody think of the Martians?

  • One good use for these things (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    They could plant them all over the place to monitor cell phone reception and fire that "Can you hear me now" guy!
  • This would be a misapplication of technology to use it to explore Antarctica. Dammit, I paid over $7K each for myself and my wife to go to there!

    If you want to see it, see it the way God intended; from the deck of a ship with very, very strong hull plating.

    (By the way, it's all water, rocks, sea lions and penguins.)
    • See it from a ship? Naw. I've talked to a guy who has been to the pole. He's a guy with some stories to tell - almost getting killed, seeing some of the most beautiful, pristine spots on the planet, oh hell yeah. In person. On his own two feet. Now that's the way to see Antarctica.

      Getting this post back to the topic at hand though, a good sensor web would definitely be useful in antarctica. Face it, it's brutal out there, and the brutality does funny things to a person's mind. Losing focus and concentratio

  • sensorweb@home anybody? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by mpthompson ( 457482 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @02:17AM (#6653150)
    This is pretty neat stuff. Perhaps NASA could sponsor a type of sensorweb@home project where these pods could be purchased at a fairly low cost by tech geeks around the world and deployed wherever -- like dandelion seeds spread into the wind. If it had an 802.11b transceiver and wasn't too expensive I would be willing to put such a pod on a post in my backyard, record it's location and let it communicate it's data over my wireless network to a central data repository on the Internet. Most pods would tend to be concentrated in populated areas, but surely many would find their ways into remote locations as well.

    If such a sensorweb@home program were successful with 10,000's of pods deployed, a vast quantity of environmental data could be collected on a global scale at a relatively low cost. Such a global network could provide greater context for data captured by planned regional sensor webs or the data could be filtered to create virtual sensor webs for testing hypothesis without the effort and expense of deploying an actual sensor web.

    Do others think that people would participate in such a project that would provide any direct benefit to the participants? Downloading and installing seti@home is one thing, actually purchasing and installing a sensor pod is another.
    • I doubt that this would make any sense, since you couldn't use it in any decent way. When you collect data, you need to make it comparable. You usually achieve this by making sure that the environmental parameters of sensors are either the same or have a known offset from each other, so that you can correct the measurements of those. Take the example of measuring temperature with a web of sensors. You wouldn't know where all the people installed theirs - over concrete ground, in the shadow, inside or outsid
    • Slashdotters whine and bitch and whine and bitch about big brother, and here an upstanding geek volunteers to put a sensor right in the middle of his yard which will be networking with thousands of others and collecting information of sorts we really wouldn't be able to verify.

      Double standard? ;P
      • Perhaps I'm a little too trusting that the information would indeed be routed to NASA rather than the NSA. Besides, collecting information such as temperature, humidity, sunlight, CO2 concentrations, etc. is a bit diferent than snapping a hi-res photgraph every 5 minutes. Isn't it?

  • Sensorship? (Score:4, Funny)

    by swankypimp ( 542486 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @02:19AM (#6653153) Homepage
    Geez, I first read the headline as "NASA Censors Web" and figured it was some juicy YRO story.

    NOTE TO SELF: Do not drink heavily and browse Slashdot at the same time. When your judgment is so impaired that the grinning Tux icon starts looking sexy, it's time to put the cognac down.

  • Rocket Science (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday August 09, 2003 @02:47AM (#6653223)
    The article quotes Kevin A. Delin, the leader of the JPL Sensor Webs Project, as saying, "Or the Sensor Web might be able to tell that up the hill the soil gets more dry because water tends to run downhill."

    I tend to agree. I learned this about 28 years ago, playing in the backyard with a garden hose.

    I'm currently working on a grant regarding my theory that branches tend to grow up and roots tend to grow down.

    My next project will be on my theory that lousy engineers tend to flow upwards toward management.
  • Finally we can evolve and say:

    "Imagine a sensor web of... ipods!!

    or something like it.
  • "Part of the problem with searching for life on Mars," Delin continues, "is that the conditions for life aren't always present. We know from earth that sometimes the air temperature gets just right and you go into the sunlight, liquid water forms, and all of a sudden things bloom very quickly. It's hard to be there for that kind of event unless you put in place a sort of continual virtual presence. That's what the Sensor Web on Mars will be."

    Ok, to me this quote seems to not make sense. Do they expect li
    • The view of Mars' past climate, and where it's going now always seems to be changing at we get more data. Were there any stable periods benign enough for life to evolve? Dunno. And we only have one planet data point to predict life from. Think some parts of deserts: Sterile and barren for ages, but when it does get that quick dump of rain, *POOF*, life all over the place for a short while.

      When it's evolved for it, life on Earth can be pretty good at staying dormant for a long period of time, then living la

  • Reverse that... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Transcendent ( 204992 ) on Saturday August 09, 2003 @09:49AM (#6654099)
    Not only a new way to test tech, but also perhaps a pervasive and inexpensive way to explore remote places such as Antarctica -- or Mars.

    Like many others, you seem to reverse the implementation of this technology in your head. It's primary purpose is not to "test tech", and the possibility of exploring remote places is above just a simple "perhaps". If you read the article you would realise that:

    One of our first applications for a Sensor Web has been to put one in remote regions of Antarctica.

    You, like many others, are continually making the mistake that all this new and grand technology is made for "tech", computing, and advances in video hardware so you can get a couple more FPS's out of your favorite first-person-shooter.... You need to see the real importance behind the technology.

    //begin comical dialog

    Scientist: We just developed a communication system that will allow us to instantly transfer data to and from satellites no matter what their distance is, with no data loss! Now we'll be able to control robots on Mars and even planets in other solar systems in real-time!

    Computer Geek: Woah! Imagine the ping rates I'll get when playing Unreal online! ::insert l33t0r talk::

    //end dialog

  • *cough* skynet *cough*
  • Yes, Finally Nancy Can Find The Legendary PLANETX!!!! Yes, And We Can Roam The Surface Looking For Zeta Reticulans That Like Our Bungholes So.
  • "Other sensor networks route information, and that's their focused goal," emphasizes Delin. "Sensor Webs collect information and interact with the environment based on what they detect.

    A Sensor Web on Mars isn't going to have control over water hoses. Exactly how a Mars web will "interact with the environment" is left unstated. It is fun to speculate, however. I imagine a few assisting robots, shaped more like spiders than the present baby buggies. Perhaps they could return interesting samples to a cen

  • Freeman Lowell would have wished he'd had a sensor web on board the Valley Forge and that last remaining bio-dome (in the movie "Silent Running", 1972), rather than rely on one remaining little robot to care for it! Sensor webs could be an environmentalist's dream come true, among many other things.

Slashdot Top Deals

"Don't try to outweird me, three-eyes. I get stranger things than you free with my breakfast cereal." - Zaphod Beeblebrox in "Hithiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

Close