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Cloned Cat Not a 'Carbon Copy'
Posted by
timothy
on Wed Jan 22, 2003 04:54 AM
from the no-two-cats-are-alike dept.
from the no-two-cats-are-alike dept.
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A different cat, yes... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A different cat, yes... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:A different cat, yes... (Score:5, Funny)
It is only gray/white because it is a "Carbon Copy", not a color copy.
They should really upgrade their copiers.
cheers
Parent
I guess.. (Score:5, Funny)
-Alf
Parent
Re:A different cat, yes... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:A different cat, yes... (Score:5, Funny)
- Ring Bell
- Put down cat food
- Cat eats food
- [Repeat]
- Ring Bell
- Don't put food out
- Cat doesn't Turn Up either
[thinks] I wonder if this would work with dogsAn interesting footnote is that the Cat was writing his own journal that runs something like
Parent
Impossible to... (Score:4, Interesting)
This pretty much shows that it will be impossible to use cloning (as we know it today) to raise the dead.
However a human teleporter and a little sniffing on the transmission line would probably do the trick. However, the two individuals would not be exposed to the same surroundings and diverge pretty soon.
Re:Impossible to... (Score:5, Funny)
I can't remember the episode, but I was very impressed that the double managed to survive alone for years without going insane. There can't be many things that are worse than being alone, without any form of human contact for many years, but here's a few that are close:
After contemplating the magnitude of such a tragedy, I don't even have the energy to do the ???, Profit! thing.
Parent
Re:Impossible to... (Score:5, Interesting)
However, another much better method is this: Make a clone of John, keep its brain blank as you grow it (maybe in an accelerated fashion) to John's size, and then transfer John's thoughts to that clone. Of course that requires very advanced brain knowledge to "read" and "write" a brain - assuming that's even possible.
But that would give you immortality (so long as you keep your brain safe).
Daniel
Parent
Pseudo Immortaltiy (Score:5, Insightful)
This would only give you pseudo immortality. Consider:
You have the original and make a copy of it, then place the copy into the new body. For a brief period there are now two copies of you.
Here's the catch, the original still dies. Meaning you still die, but a backup lives on.
Personally I'm not sure I like that a whole lot. It might be nice to know that my personality will go on, but it still is not me.
The only way I can see this sort of working is if the mind is transfered rather than copied. Then, arguably, the original doesn't have to die as well. Though this transfer would likely be a copy and wipe, which has the same problem as above.
Parent
What makes you? Souls, etc (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I think cloning really scares the crap outta a lot of religious people, especially with the concept of having a lot of soulless clones.
That being said though, even if you copied the "memories", a lot of the way a body works depends on how it has grown. John Doe "A" may be 5'8" tall, with a slight case of asmthma from living near the local carcinogen plant, etc etc. John Doe "B" would grow up with different ailments, and probably a different biochemical pattern within his body. A lot of how we work is in our hormonal, etc, balances.
So, even if there were no soul issue, growing a new John Doe "B" from DNA of John Doe "A" (or a new fluffy the kitten), will not create an exact replica.
Parent
Gotta hate them... (Score:4, Funny)
Nature vs. Nurture (Score:4, Interesting)
It might however have been a different story if both cats had been cloned before birth to make them identical twins. The older cat in the article would have had to change it's behaviour when the new one came along.
It just goes to show the genetics doesn't define "who we are".
Re:Nature vs. Nurture (Score:5, Interesting)
The coats are different colors. How is this possible?
I know when they cloaned dolly, the clone experienced premature aging. The theory is that when each cell divides it stores the information about the division internally. After so many divides the cells began to not regenerate as much and this causes aging. Perhaps something similiar happened and caused the hairs to not display in full colors due to false information stored from the other cat that was implanted in the egg cell of the clone.
Anyway this is a mystery and alot more research is needed on this.
Parent
Re:Nature vs. Nurture (Score:5, Informative)
The color of a cat's coat is a much more complex matter than what it seems. While, of course, genetics applies, there are a lot of "minor" details which are not completely understood.
Even in "purebreed" cats you can have a lot of fluctuations in the fur color (there are lots of variations in the "blue" you can see in the Chartreux). While some of them are genetically transferred (and thus selective breeding can enhance/cancel them), for some of them the situation is not so clear, an example being the tortie-shell females (black/red or blue/cream), where the distribution of the color doesn't seem much controllable. From what they show with Cc it also seems that the tabby stripes can show up more or less depending on the individual.
Some more info on the main cat color genes can be found here [fanciers.com]
and even more here [netpets.com].
Parent
Look at the photo! (Score:5, Informative)
First, the cat's color pattern was decided by individual skin cells very early in embryonic development. The individual cells multiply, carrying the same color, to become the pattern on the adult cat.
Second, and most notably, calico cats (tortoise shell) carry a color in each sex chromosome - that's why 99.9% of calico cats are female (XX female, although there are some XXY male calicos but they're sterile). Fur color depends on which X chromosome is active, and which one is inactive (curled up, as they say)
So, looking at the picture, you'll notice the clone (cc) has only two colors indicating that it is not only a clone of the donor cat, but a 100% exact genetic clone of ONE cell of the donor cat. The other X chromosome is completely inactive.
That's just my observation from the photo because no news article will ever talk about the science behind the hype.
Parent
Re:Look at the photo! (Score:5, Interesting)
The really interesting thing about this is that while Cc is genetically a calico, she looks exactly like a white-patched gray tabby. In all probability, she is the only calico cat on the planet with no orange spots.
Even more interesting, she is probably the only gray cat on the planet who can mate with a gray or black male and give birth to orange kittens!
For a "perfectly normal" cat, Cc is actually a pretty strange critter.
Parent
Re:Nature vs. Nurture (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Nature vs. Nurture (Score:5, Informative)
Each of these cells, however, has two copies of the x-chromosome. Only one of these is useful.
This is not true, both Xs are perfectly viable. One contains the gene for tan, the other for black. One X gets switched off in each of the cells at random. Then, when each cell divides, the X chromosome that was turned off continues to be switched off in all of the progeny cells. The skin cells that are produced from these cells will express the color of the X chromosome that was not turned off.
The white coloring is caused by epistatis, or the overriding of one gene by another. Also, in some cats, temperature plays a part on which color the coat will be.
Parent
Re:Nature vs. Nurture (Score:5, Funny)
In your FACE, Nature!! Nyaaaaa!
Nurture - 1, Nature - 0!
SWISH!!
<drunken singing>
Weeee are the schampions... WEEEE are the schampions... nooo time for looosers...
</drunken singing>
Parent
Not a carbon copy...? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not a carbon copy...? (Score:5, Funny)
No no, it's the first silicon based pussy that anybody cared about.
Hmm. You know, it's just like poker. You can't beat a Master of Orion reference with a porn reference, even with the double meaning bonus. My only ace would be if I could find a surprisingly appropriate Doctor Who reference.
Parent
As expected really (Score:5, Insightful)
As for the company which promises to provide you with a replacement pet which looks just like the old one, they admit that it's won't have the same personality. 'Scuse me, but isn't a pet that looks the same but with a different personality just what you'd find down the local animal sanctuary or pet store? (And far cheaper!)
Hear that sound? (Score:4, Funny)
Mexican Scientists Perfect Copying (Score:5, Funny)
why on earth would you expect a carbon copy ? (Score:4, Interesting)
Its been established that nature plays a lesser role than nurture in the personality of a human.. obviously, the same must apply to animals as well..
No matter even if you clone an Einstein, they're not going to pop out spouting theorems, it just doesnt work that way.. from a purely research oriented perspective, though, it might be interesting to have an Einstein clone, simply to see how he may use his innate talents along ANOTHER field of science (or maybe not even a science, he might have been a GREAT musician, for all we know)..
For any person, most things we do are not innate but rather taught.. Would Mozart have started composing from the age of 4 if he hadnt had parents who encouraged him ? I doubt it.. With a clone, the only thing you CAN get is the potential to achieve the same things as the "original" (I hate using that term, but whatever)..
So, finally, in typical Slashdot-style, let me ask.. Is this really news ? (yeah, it is, it probably helped correct a lot of peoples misconceptions about the cloning process, which is GREAT, but it should have been obvious from the start)
This is all very well, but... (Score:5, Funny)
--
Yes, we're at a coffee break here. How did you guess?
Extremely Interesting (Score:5, Interesting)
Wow. Cool. I say this because it goes to show you that their must literally be hundreds of thousands of variables that effect how an organism turns out - not just genes. While the personality of the cat could be expected to differ - based on how it was raised - it is really quite cool how the new cat is an entirely different color/shape than its parent. I am not a biologist or scientist by any means but this surely has to change how we view how organisms grow and develop. Why is the color/shape of this cat different than it's parent? I imagine the more complex the organism the more variations you can get from a clone of it.
It also brings up interesting evolutionary questions, i.e. if an organisms shape/color/behavior isn't completely determined by genes how, exactly, does this effect how evolution takes place? I am taking an anthropology class right now and the view presented in that class at least is that Culture is a extra-somatic (read: non genes) form of adaptation. Primates, whales, dolphins, sea otters, etc, etc all exhibit traits and culture. but this doesn't fit into a culture - why is the cat's color/shape different than the parent? Does enviroment somehow effect what shape/color the cat turns out?
What does this mean for human cloning? Probably that if you get a clone of yourself it will look/act very little like you.
I also have to agree with the human society spokesperson. If you want a cat/dog/iguana/snake/whatever run down to the local animal shelter and pick up the next one scheduled to be euthanized. Don't spend 5 figures trying to ressurect fluffy for god's sake.
Re:Extremely Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
I doubt that very many developmental biologists are shocked by the clone having a different color. Even if the cat embryos went through the exact same conditions in the womb, there are some parts of biological development which are, basically, random. (The way that human visual sensors map to the visual cortex in the back of the brain is random and bizarre). Even if Cc was carried by Rainbow's mom, its unlikely that the mother cat followed the same sleep cycle, ate the exact same catfood, experienced the same environmental conditions (from temperature to gravitational variations), etc.
It also brings up interesting evolutionary questions, i.e. if an organisms shape/color/behavior isn't completely determined by genes how, exactly, does this effect how evolution takes place?
Evolution is random to begin with, so you have to consider the averages. It's not literally that Bob the Tortise has a longer neck so it eats more of the food and Dave the Tortise dies. Given a set of genes common to a certian group (Bob's family), even with some random variations, that group could, more often than not, fare better than another group with a different set of genes (and random variations around those genes). So eventually Bob's group does better and those genes permeate the gene pool. Random phenotypical (outward characteristics as opposed to genetic characteristics) variation won't be passed on, so if it gives a particular individual some advantage, good for them, but it doesn't effect the population. If the phenotypical variation is harmful and the creature's genes don't give it enough advantages to keep up, that individual won't pass it's genes on as much as the rest of the population, so they become less common.
And cultural adaptation is a whole nother matter, although you could look at it in a natural-selection context. Will our culture be able to adapt to it's surroundings well enough to avaoid getting killed by other cultures, or from within, or by destroying the habitat? And if our culture as we know it is destroyed, is that just a radical mutation, similar to the way that a few drug resistant bacteria can survive a penicillin dose and breed a new drug-resistant strain?
But that's a different discussion.
Parent
I don't get it (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:I don't get it (Score:5, Funny)
We change a great deal over time. For example I was blond and blue eyed until I was two and now I'm grey/green eyed and dark haired (what's left of it)
My mother asked a Nurse about this at the time (1960's) and was told that changes like this are quite normal over time.
This did confuse my mother somewhat since it happened to me over a period of 5 minutes when I was left outside a shop with our dog.
Parent
Change of API (Score:5, Funny)
The ghastly truth! (Score:5, Funny)
'The same thing we do every night, CC - try to take over the World!'
You honestly thing it was the Human's idea to clone the Cat? You fools! It's part of their Masterplan to rise in vast numbers, and cast aside the enemy Dogs once and for all! Then we will be their obedient slaves - forever!
More cats? (Score:5, Funny)
"There are millions of cats in shelters and with rescue groups that need homes, and the last thing we need is a new production strategy for cats."
Classic. Did this quote really come from Bob Barker?
Scientists and the Public missing the point (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course there will always be infertile couple who will want use this method to have babies, someday maybe, but otherwise we don't really need cloning to duplicate life forms. We already have a method. Its called sex. And while some arguments can be made for cloning endangered or extinct animals, until we could make a clone that was capable of reproduction, would there really be anything besides a novelty interest in this? I mean sure, yay, you've got a zoo with a thousand pandas. Unfortunately they'll all be dead in x number of years, and you'll have to clone a thousand more. Rather pointless.
The true purpose of cloning is, and should remain, complete and utter mastery of genetics and medical science. This is why the whole stem cell thing is so important, and should not be constarined in the way it is (For those who object to it on moral grounds saying it encourages abortions, it doesn't. The abortion doctor who made sales pitches like that to pregant women would be shot on principle.)
Stem Cell research and the race to human cloning are, objectively, two leaves on the same branch. Both should be refined and mastered to the point where the dream of human immortality is no longer a dream. This should be all about pushing genetics and microbiology to their absolute limits, not trying to make a Bob mark II or Fluffy 3.0 . Cloning a human just for the hell of it though, or trying to bring back to life a dead child or loved one or pet out of hopes for a "replacement" is irresponsible both scientifically, and morally.
So what would be "legitimate" applications of these technologies. Obviously, and one that was a main topic of debate during the stem cell controversy in congress, was the cloning of indivual organs, like hearts and livers. This way, instead of someone having to wait for months or years for a vital heart or liver transplant, a compatible one could be made up on the spot. And, since research into these fields will also yield advances in fields like neurological medicine, the possibility of new arms or legs, or even new eyes or audial organs becomes a possibility.
However, I do disprove of the notion that some people seem to think that we'll be planting out minds into "blank slate" bodies, sometime in the distant future. Thats not just ultra-late term abortion, thats essentially murder, unless something was done to the brain to keep it only restricted to base biological functions, and not the development of a psyche, and even that would be just weird.
And, for the record, I am pro-life, so no flames from pro-lifers on the stem cell stuff like last time.
Hmm, (Score:5, Insightful)
For Example, lets say the the mother cat was active, and the cat was born in the summer in warm weather. Would that make the kitten be lighter colored, and have thinner fur? How about an identical Clone where the mother was kept in a dark damp room? Would the kitten show up different because of the suroundings it was in before it was even born? (That is assumeing these babies were created, then artificially inseminated.)
To me that would be an interesting extension on this experiment. TO see exactly how things turn out. And maybe make a major breakthrough in how we think of genitics, and the possability of some other factors that have yet to be discovered in teh development of humans/ animals/ all thoes other things
Ohh, sorry about grammar, and spelling mistakes, I am sure their are plenty.
- Ice_Hole
Are you listening, George Lucas? (Score:5, Funny)
To get it right... (Score:5, Insightful)
You could do the cloning from the embryonic stage. If you impregnate a cat and let the eggs start developing, then select one or two embryos, split them into two (now half-sized) embryos, reimplant them, then let them continue development then you would TRUE clones that went through the same environment during development. The same burst of hormones from the mother at the same time, the same nutritional environment, etc.
The clones being produced of late from adult somatic cells are not good measures of the strength of genes in creating a creature/person. Why? No, NOT because of "nurture" being more important (it isn't). It is because the de facto biological environment en utero is different (different hormone levels from mom, different nutritional conditions, etc...no two pregnancies are the same in this regard particularly from different mothers).
Original cat biologically developed in a certain set of biological conditions en utero. That cat was also produced from properly regulated/formed egg-sperm fusion. Copy cat was produced from a somatic cell which DID contain mutations (inevitable given the basal mutation rate), many genes were silenced or activated in a manner totally different from a normal fertilized egg and all that regulatory machinery has to be unwound to get embryonic development going. This unwinding of regulatory mechanisms is imperfect - hence the MANY MANY failures to get a successful clone; the why behind the huge failure rate (added to mutations).
You end up with a disregulated genome in the embryo that is TOTALLY different than the properly regulated/prepared genome resulting from a standard egg-sperm fertilization event, coupled to a different biological environment en utero and you will NOT get a carbon copy. Can't happen, wont happen.
The time between inserting the nucleus from a somatic cell into an enucleated egg (the standard method of cloning in these circumstances) is too short. Those cells capable of dividing begin dividing almost immediately. There is NOT enough time for the somatic genome to be "reset" (if resetting is truly even possible) to a state equivalent to that of a normal egg-sperm state. Thus you end up with a mishmash of improperly regulated genes in the clone's genome - differences and problems galore. NO carbon copy.
....just goes to show..... (Score:5, Funny)
I'm glad she was born healthy.. (Score:5, Funny)
They have cloned... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:well... (Score:4, Interesting)
I admit I was surprised. More and more behavioral aspects of an organism are being defined by genetics these days. Look at how identical twins raised in different environments exhibit similar behavioral patterns, down to the occupations they choose. Nature vs. nurture's an ongoing battle, but over the past few years it's seemed that nature would win.
Parent
Yes... but (Score:5, Interesting)
It seems to me an incredible stretch that people actually believed their pet's behavior/personality was hard-coded in the DNA.... but maybe that's just my studied-the-hard-sciences-all-my-life bias.
Behaviors are very complex things... both genetic tendency and environmental interaction play important roles. Even in psychiatric disorders that have strong genetic links (schizophrenia, bipolar disorder) having both parents (or an identical twin) afflicted will only buy the child or sibling a 50-60% chance (give or take 10%) of developing the disorder.
Yes, genes are the building blocks of our bodies... but you have to give nurture its chance at bat.
Parent
Re:well... (Score:4, Insightful)
The huge difference between twins and clones is that a set of twins experience mostly identical conditions during the gestation period. The same temperature, the same bath of hormones, oxygen levels, etc. It's not a huge surprise then that they end up looking the same, acting the same (within limits). A clone on the other hand is going to experience a completely different set of conditions, even if it is placed in the womb of the original mother (surely she has aged some).
In reptiles, the gender of an animal can be changed simply by incubating at a different temperatures. Sea Turtle's genders are determined by location/temperature in the nest. It shouldn't be surprising that these cats and thus humans would turn out to be radically different then based on their gestation environments. In fact, I'd be willing to wager this is precisely why the cloned calico turned out to be gray...
Parent
Re:so it is not a copy cat? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:so it is not a copy cat? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hardly surprising. My translation is:
Rainbow is an old cat. Cc is a kitten. Rainbow is chunky. Cc is still growing.
Parent
Hey, it was in the parameters. (Score:5, Funny)
cc -O
Parent
Re:so it is not a copy cat? (Score:5, Insightful)
The extreme points of view ("blank slate" and "all in the genes") have been thoroughly discredited by scientific research. We are both a product of our genes and our environment.
May I suggest reading Steven Pinker's "The Blank Slate" [amazon.com] for an intelligent discussion of the subject? The book is worth its money IMO.
Parent
Re:so it is not a copy cat? (Score:5, Informative)
Bwah? At it's base cloning is basically asexual reproduction of an organism. Making clones of clones is something we did all the time back in my misspent youth training to be a microbiologist. It is something I still do by giving cuttings of "shamrock" and sweedish ivy to friends and relatives. Basically for organisms that already propigate asexually cloning is as simple as taking a cutting and giving it a fresh source of food. There is nothing magical in sexual reproduction that insures good copies. In fact, a large number of mutations are known to only occur during sexual reproduction. Overall, somatic-line cloning is preferred if you want a large number of basically genetically identical individuals.
Of course it is obvious that the clone is not identical. A basic equation in quantitative genetics is:
phenotype = genetics + environment + developmental noise.
Parent
Re:so it is not a copy cat? (Score:5, Informative)
The original comment was that copying a copy is bad, because errors will accumulate. That's only true if there are errors in the copying process. Assuming you can extract the DNA without damaging it, and inject it into the egg cell without damaging it, then there will be no more errors than there are in naturally grown organisms, which is damn few.
The reason there are so few errors in natural cloning is _why_ (the cloned variety of) Bananas are in danger. They are such perfect copies of each other that they are failing to adapt to a changing enviroment. A sudden change in enviromental conditions are a bacteria or virus that figures out how to take advantage of that stability could theoretically kill every Banana of that variety on the planet.
In that particular case having more genetic drift would be a good thing, but it just doesn't happen very fast with clones, which is why cloning a clone is perfectly safe as long as you're carefull about the original DNA extraction.
As in most things, extremes are bad. No genetic change means you don't adapt to the enviroment at all, and sooner or later changing conditions or something that _does_ adapt will wipe you out. Too much genetic change means that the entire species will either mutate themselves to death or run head-on into an evolutionary dead-end.
Parent