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Science

Virtual Reality Schizophrenia Simulation 54

Posted by michael from the reality-not-always-desirable dept.
DrunkenTerror writes "NPR is reporting this story about a virtual reality schizophrenia simulation developed by Janssen Pharmaceutica, a company that makes a drug for schizophrenia. The simulation (seen through a VR HMD) lets the user experience the world through the eyes and ears of a person with schizophrenic illness. The rig was designed as an education tool for doctors and others who want a more visceral understanding of the illness. The voices in the RealAudio slideshow are really overwhelming. Janssen is said to be considering converting the VR content to DVD for wider release. Helloooooo, future of trip-hop!"
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Virtual Reality Schizophrenia Simulation More

Virtual Reality Schizophrenia Simulation

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  • Kill your parents...

    Kill your kids...

    Do it...
    Do it...
    Do it...
  • Am I the only one that wasn't deeply disturbed by the slideshow? Maybe it's just because it was a slideshow and not some DVD-quality video with a VR helmet. Neat idea, anyways.
    • The pictures weren't that bad - but the voices really got to me by the end... keep in mind that the only one talking for most of it was the pharmicist, and she was being nice the whole time, but that's not what you heard. I can see how it would be crazy in VR.
      • Were the voices imitating her voice when she complains that someone let him out of the asylum (or escaped, I couldn't hear it that well)?

        I guess that's the point, you lose the ability to discern the real from the 'imagined'.
    • ... or maybe your Schizophrenia is much worse than the simulation.
      ... or maybe someone has hacked your computer and is feeding you a less disturbing realaudio stream.
      ... or maybe...
  • I suggest listening to Joanne Silberner's full report [npr.org] in addition to the slideshow. And turn up the volume on the slideshow. The vocal layers go pretty deep. Or just take a bunch of LSD. Sounds pretty damn similar to me.

  • The game "Alice" (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    In the game Alice there is a lot of this kind of thing.
    The main story line is Alice is skitzo

    It can get pretty fscked up

  • Hmm (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Lately, I've been waking up in the middle of the night, and imaginging that there were things all around me or games being played or people sitting out in the living room wanting me to do things. Once, I even convinced myself that I've woken in a fantasy and whatever I do, nothing can can change in the real world. Like 2 nights back, I woke up and thought of going out, luckly, I wore something, then went out to the backyard and sat around smoking a cig, it was only when the cig was done and I was back inside that I realized half the time I thought I was in some fantasy dream world. Another thing, I couldn't remember what happend before it.

    Does anyone have these experiences? Are these anything to worry about? Or me just getting too tired, too much games, work, etc... and too less sleep? Or too much food? Any thoughts?
    • You may have some sort of sleep disorder. If I were you I'd make an appointment at a sleep clinic. Your GP is probbably fairly ignorant about sleep disorders, at least according to one of the leading sleep disorder specialist, William Dement. So try to find a sleep clinic.
    • Yea, I had a similar experience. I found myself in my house, in my bed, yet for about half an hour I couldn't for the life of me figure out where I was. Once I finally DID figure out I was at my own house, it took me a considerable amount of time to figure out how and why I got here, and if I woke up any family member in the process.
      I had difficulties thinking straight .. I'd start a thought, lose it after a few seconds then spend the next 10-15 minutes thinking about what I was thinking.
      Of course, this was due to certain circumstances I won't discuss, but hey .. its all good right? :)

    • Re:Hmm (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      You may be be mildly schizophrenic. In people without schizophrenic symptoms, the barriers between the subconcious and concious are more or less concrete. Images from your past or imagination are summoned only when the context of the external world draws them out. And even then, those images are in the background and dim compared to the strength of the world falling upon the sensorium.

      But with schizophrenics the images and scenerios from their pasts and from their imaginations are just as strong as the input from the sensorium. And those scenes come forth unheeded by the contexts of what is happening in the real world.

      From analysis of my own dreams and thoughts, I sometimes wonder if we all live dual lives. One life we are aware of and is composed of our direct and explicit experiences, and the other is a stream of analogies that run just below the surface, mirroring the real world with abbreviations, shortcuts and summaries of past experiences.

      When you sleep and dream, you get a look at this other world and it's lexicon of analogies you've constructed to keep track of things in the real world. Your life is probably much richer than what you can readily percieve.

  • Nice toy. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 30, 2002 @12:23PM (#4170435)
    But I'm afraid us sane people, being quite aware that the simulation is just a simulation, will still have no clue what it's really like to have scizophrenia. Schizophrenics can't distinguish between reality and their hallucinations. Their voices are not "in their heads", they come from the outside world, or so it seems to them. They see people who don't exist, hear voices booming from the sky, see messages appear in perfect clarity in thin air, and on and on...

    The central issue of schizophrenia isn't any wacked out psychedelic VR trip. It's more like a constant daydream, except that it's utterly impossible to distinguish between the dream and the real world. The hallucinations are idiosyncratic, coming from the psyche and experience of the individual in question... Frankly, I don't see what kind of value this research has to schizophrenic patients.

    • Re:Nice toy. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Zen Mastuh ( 456254 )

      Yours is probably the most insightful post in this article. This software is the result of a non-schizophrenic's insight into the world of schizophrenia, which he can only surmise from observations of patients as well as their own descriptions. At best it is a toy, just as you said.

      This will have absolutely no research value, but will give non-schizophrenics comfort when they believe it allows them to "understand" what is happening in the mind of a schizophrenic patient.

      I'm waiting for the anti-drug crowd to buy licenses for this product so they can "demonstrate" the effects of LSD and other drugs to fearful, impressionable parents.

      • Most of the effects of LSD would be hard to simulate (as with schizophrenia) because most of it is not "voices you hear" or "things you see" but bodily sensations and drastic changes in the thinking process, which are impossible to simulate.

        sure you could simulate the "trails effect" you see when taking lsd, and maybe some of the patterns you see when you close your eyes, and the "swirling paint" effect that you see on textured walls, but people that take LSD don't see massive hallucinations. they don't see things that aren't there, they see things that are there differently.

        The best description of an lsd visual would be from "fear and loathing in las vegas" the film based on the hunter thompson book, in a scene where the 2 guys had just taken ... something, i think it was acid... as they are walking into the casino bar the pattern from the carpet was creeping up the furnature. right after that it lost it's believability (for me anyway) with the giant lizards, cuz i've never seen that kinda shit.

        but at least for me the reason for taking as much lsd as i did in the past was not to "see cool hallucinations", but to think about things in a different way, see things from a different perspective, and it's this aspect (the dominant one) that would be impossible to simulate.

        on a side note, i did lsd hundreds of times when i was younger, and now i have been diagnosed with post traumatic stress disorder after a seriously bad trip. it's been 3 years since that trip and i get panic attacks and shit all the time. never did before that trip. so while i recommend using LSD, i don't recommend overusing it, and if it just doesn't feel right one night to drop acid, don't. drink a coffee instead of spending the whole night thinking your brain is about to explode. (there was no physical problem with my brain, it was just the thought process that lasd changed to make me feel like my brain was expanding beyond my skull)

    • More than a toy. (Score:3, Interesting)

      by robkill ( 259732 )
      Yes, it is a simulation. It was developed with the help of schizophrenia patients, who tested it and gave feedback to the developer. One of the patients interviewed said it was realistic enough that he couldn't finish the simulation.

      The goal of the simulation is to educate the families and physicians of schizophrenic patients, giving them a realistic impression of what the patients endure. It's not going to be perfect, obviously, but it raises awareness and understanding.

      • Re:More than a toy. (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Yes, it is a simulation. It was developed with the help of schizophrenia patients, who tested it and gave feedback to the developer. One of the patients
        interviewed said it was realistic enough that he couldn't finish the simulation.

        Again, I reiterate, the schizophrenics will be able to see that this is like schizophrenia because they have suffered from the disease, and they know what it is like. But there is no simulation that can even come close to showing non-schizophrenics what it is like. That is, the simulation may be quite realistic and disturbing to people who have schizophrenia, but that says nothing about how it affects people without schizophrenia, and how it demonstrates the illness to them.

        To make the LSD analogy (which I shouldn't, but I will)... I might be able to show you a Winamp plug-in that looks very much like a visual hallucination that one might experience on acid. But that is completely and utterly different from knowing what it is like to be on acid. The only way to know is to have done it, just like the only way to know what schizphrenia is like is to have it. VR doesn't come any closer than a verbal description. The fact that we have people commenting on how "cool" the simulation is should give this fact away. Schizophrenics don't find it "cool," and many times find it to be wholly disturbing and unsettling.

        Let me put it like this: Can I put you in a VR that will convince you that you are dreaming, a la the matrix? No. When you are awake, you know you aren't dreaming, and there is no sensory stimulation that can negate that. But it's just that kind of mechanism that we have to deal with to even talk about simulating schizophrenia. I stand by my original assertion. Considering most of the population still thinks that schizophrenics have multiple personalities, I don't see how the money spent on this VR project will help general awareness at all. This is a toy.
        • I once knew a girl, who was later diagnosed as schitzo.. bad news is that i got her pregnent. Anyway, lots of things about her fascinated me. When I was first getting to know her she once described to me about this one time she was raped horribly by this one guy... but later on when i first had sex with her she was defiently a virgin. (bloody sheets to prove it.)

          She had other problems too, things I am not even sure what they are.. some repressive thing also where you could have a conversation with her and walk into the next room in the middle of the conversation. A few minutes later she would not remember the conversation or how she got in the room.

          The wierdest thing is how well she adapted to all her problems... nothing seemed strange or abnormal to her. She said some things were unsettling to her at times but she didn't concern herself about it.

          Anyway, she did later get diagnosed but she has refused all forms of treatment. We can't get her commited because she has never caused harm to herself or anyone else. But she is in pretty messed up shape these days, I haven't talked to her in awhile.

          The thing I am concerened about is my daughter, who is 3 now. I am told that schizophrenia skips generations so I don't have to be concerened about my daughter.... but how do I explain to her the risk of her having kids?

          Oh well

          • Sounds more like DID (Dissasociative Identity Disorder) -- you know, MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder) which was renamed and incorporated under a spectrum of DIDs. . lots of MPDs often get misdiagnosed as schizophrenic.. however, the two disorders are quite different. That whole "repressive thing" and the adaptation and the "unsettling things" seriously point towards DID rather than schizophrenia. Look it up in the DSM-IV (Diagnostic Statistical Manual (?) of the American Psychiatric Association), or elsewhere.

            BTW, women can have sex or have their hymens broken (for whatever reason) and still have some of it remaining, thusly at a later date have it broken further thus causing bleeding. There are also other reasons why a woman might bleed during or after sex. Also, while I don't know all the details of this alleged rape.. there are other ways that a woman can be raped, not to mention, just because one is raped doesnt mean full penetration took place for whatever reason.

            BTW, I don't think there is any real basis to "schizophrenia skips generations" I think it "runs in families" rather than "skips generations". It's just a matter of a genetic predisposition to something. You don't need to explain to her "the risk of her having kids" it's not like if her mom had cancer, her kid would get cancer. It doesn't work that way.

            You know, I probably could/should find www references for these things, but I'm too tired.. you'll just have to either look it up somewhere [google.com] or take my word for it.

        • By your analogy then, a camera is a toy, because a picture is a visual representation of an event or place and you do not actually experience being there. Yet still cameras and video cameras have many uses beyond that of a toy.

          Note I used the terms "realistic impression" and "raise awareness". I don't contend that someone who has experienced the simulator knows what it's like to have schizophrenia any more than spending a day in a wheelchair makes someone understand what it's like to be paraplegic. For some people, a picture is more effective than a verbal description. If the simulator helps a physician relate to his patients better than just having a clinical knowledge of the symptoms, or, as the NPR segment mentions, teaches a friend or family member that a schizophrenic patient can't "just ignore" the sensory input, then it is a worthwhile pursuit. In your last sentence you mention that most people think schizophrenia is multiple personality disorder. If this "toy" helps a large segment of the population recognize what schizophrenia actually is, then doesn't that make it worth pursuing?

  • Fantastic Idea (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    My younger brother has schizophrenia, and for the longest time, my parents had no idea what he was going through. They didn't know he had to be brought in for treatment because they thought he was just being a "bad boy."

    I think this is just another step in understanding mental illness.
  • I work in phone support, and normally have a 1 ear headset with music, radio whatever playing on it, and use the other ear to answer the phone. Usually it's no problem. I tried to take a user call while this thing was playing in one ear, and the user on the other ear. WOW. Totally confused, had to turn it off and ask them to repea ttheir questions. I was trying to imagine what this is like with this going on all the time.
  • The simulation (seen through a VR HMD) lets the user experience the world through the eyes and ears of a person with schizophrenic illness.

    They had something similar in the 60's. It was called "LSD".
    • They have it in the 2,000's also.

      Mmmm. Pscholicious.

      • For real. Ever notice how only people who have never done LSD make it obvious when they speak about LSD? I'm really surprised he didn't mention flashbacks, jumping from rooftops, and various other myths held by LSD virgins.

        • For real. Ever notice how only people who have never done LSD make it obvious when they speak about LSD? I'm really surprised he didn't mention flashbacks, jumping from rooftops, and various other myths held by LSD virgins.

          I would note that "one trip fits all" is also often not the case. It affects different people differently. Thus, your personal experiences may not match that of others.

  • What i wanna know is what happens when you put a skitzo in one of these machines...
  • Is it just me, or does it sound like a song from The Mothers of Invention?

    And also, it seems like everything the voices say is negative. Are they any conditions like schizophrenia where instead of downing you constantly, the voices help you?

    If there is, the voice is probably 'Jesus', but other than that, I'd like to know.

  • OK Simulation - Not Quite Right Though (Score:3, Interesting)

    by OverToasty ( 605373 ) on Saturday August 31, 2002 @10:39AM (#4176200) Homepage
    It's a properly creepy simulation, but a few things are missing. 1 - Pharmacy people aren't all smiles and helpful as the actors in this video are, they're human too, and thus, they're prone to looking a little confused, frustrated etc - especially when dealing with a nonsensical schizo; unfortunately, what tends to feed a schizo is an extreme over interpretation of every little signal (a worried look by the pharmacist suddenly means "Oh, this is the person I'm supposed to kill, geez what a shame" ... as opposed to a simple smile tending to trigger that). There's plenty of simple minded types who believe that schizophrenia has absolutely NO bearing on reality what-so-ever, and when explaining to such types, it's perhaps best just to repeat the party line, since this is probably about as close as they'll ever get to understanding anyway, but for those looking for deeper insight (as I assume anybody who watched this video wants to do - unless of course, they're just going for the quickie freak-out), then it's possible to take the 'fractal' to the next level of resolution, and tell it more like it is, thus: yes schizophrenia often has a bearing on reality, but a very very twisted bearing on it ... and yes sometimes, it does in fact have none at all, in which case, even the simplest smile by a pharmacist really does mean "You're going to die". (note: chances are the video was stadged as such - with pharmacists looking absolutely perfect - to demonstrate clearly the disconnect from reality, which I suppose is ok to make that point, but it's not exactly accurate, which is mine) 2 - Panic, I like the way the video built things build up into an over-all sense of constant panic, which only makes the mind - of even a sane individual - race even more! When you're having problem interpreting input as it is, and suddenly there's even more panic thrown into the picture, making interpretation even more difficult, it's no wonder schizophrenics completely loose it in even slightly stressful situations. 3 - Wanna find out what Schizophrenia is like? Easy, do a whole lot of Acid ... for paranoid schozophrenia, do a whole lot of acid while crossing an international border while carrying a whole lot of acid - then, to get an even truer vibe, walk up to customs. Uh, then again, you might not want to know ... come to think of it, stick with the video.
  • The DVD is out for "A beautiful mind." This movie is an excellent portrayal of Schizophrenia. Watching the movie, *you* actually believe that the hero's fantasies are reality. Of course, movies are an excellent medium for this because they work through the magic of suspension of disbelief and you essentially immerse yourself in a fantasy world for two hours.

    Myself, after watching this movie I could totally understand what a schizophrenic goes through and why they would resist tooth and nail, letting go of their fantastic hallucinations. Not only are these hallucinations as real to them as reality is, but the fact of the matter is that some of the people they imagine could well be their best friends. Not to mention the other nasty side effects of the drugs that make them go away.

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