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Science Technology

Rat Mind Control 198

Posted by timothy from the you-will dept.
Patrick Key writes "Well, not exactly mind control but scientists have taken rat training to a new level. By inserting electrodes into the brain of a rat, they're able to effectively control a rat to move forward, left and right. They used the brain area that processes whisker info for left/right control and the pleasure center for moving forward. All sorts of interesting implications- no mention of when a human version would be available. The feat is mentioned in an IEEE's Spectrum article here"
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Rat Mind Control More

Rat Mind Control

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  • Comment removed (Score:3, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Sunday August 11, 2002 @04:26AM (#4049641)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • repost (Score:4, Informative)

    by xercist ( 161422 ) on Sunday August 11, 2002 @04:27AM (#4049645) Homepage
    Can't the editors do a simple SEARCH?
    It's been posted here before [slashdot.org]. Took me 10 seconds to find it.

    • Re:repost (Score:2, Informative)

      by littleRedFriend ( 456491 )
      Maybe it is time to include some text clustering algorithms into the /. engine.

      The medline database, for example, contains millions of abstracts from scientific articles that have been clustered using this [nih.gov] relatively simple method. It works very well. In this way editors would be able to find related posts. The 3 most similar posts could be interesting for us readers as well.

    • Re:repost (Score:3, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Well, here's the five highest modded Funny comments from the _last_ time this was posted, just so we know how lame slashdot really is.

      Subj: remote controller rats

      Do they use 9.6 volt batteries? Those battery packs tend to run out so fast, I'd hate to have to recharge my rats after only a half hour of use. That simply wouldn't be acceptable.

      Subj: First step rats, the next step Congressman!
      The title says it all.

      Makes for a great alibi, though. Combine it with a bone-conductive radio impland and it gives new credence to the old "voices told me to do it" excuse.

      Subj: erm.. rat cyborg

      does it star in the new terminator 3 movie coming out??

      Subj: Okay I get it...

      but did they really have to use rats? I mean, it's a great idea and all, but the last thing I want if I'm stranded somewhere is rats all over me. Am I alone in this?

      Just my $.02

      Subj: Re:First rats, then people

      I don't know about you, but I think I would notice that portions of my skull were missing when my hairbrush perforated my brain.

    • Re:repost (Score:5, Insightful)

      by foom ( 29095 ) on Sunday August 11, 2002 @07:30AM (#4049912) Homepage
      no they *can't* do a simple search, because the "search engine" DOESN'T INDEX 3-LETTER WORDS. Go ahead, search for "rat", you won't find anything. Try searching for "rat mind", wow look at all those irrelevant articles because it conveniently ignored the "rat" part of the search. I really don't understand how the slashdot search engine can possibly pretend to be useful when it doesn't index 3-letter words. Half the interesting search terms "for nerds" are acronyms of 3 letters or less, not to mention the actual real words like rat.
    • It would be interesting to do an analysis and see who at /. reposts most often. My money is on CmdrTaco.
    • Because the Slashdot search engine has to be one of the worst in existance. I sure don't have time to wade through the mess the words rat, mice, and control return. apparently, neither do the editors, though they expect the same out of you.

    • damn skippy (Score:2, Insightful)

      by moby ( 96858 )
      it seems that the readers are more knowledgeable of previous stories than the actual ones in charge of posting...
      this story is instantly recognizable as a previous posting... would've taken me about 10 seconds to find as well!
  • The article also mentioned about they got a monkey to move a cursor

    Now, would it not be awsome for that cursor to be hooked up with that mouse and let the monkey to control that cursor to control that mouse (hehe)

  • Ninja Turtles (Score:2, Funny)

    by chicoy ( 305673 )
    Pretty soon the army will be able to make ninja turtles that live in the sewers, and eat pizza.

    Or imagine a real life donkey kong game?

    rspc who?

    aaaaaaahh...
    ... but, ...but who else will protect us from the evil Shredder?

  • Interesting... (Score:2, Informative)

    by wrinkledshirt ( 228541 )
    They're doing some interesting work with deep brain stimulation. It's already been used for a while [nasw.org] to deal with Parkinsons patients.
    • yeah, but that was nowhere near as complex; they just sent a constant jolt at one place on the head and the patient had to be next to a power source
    • Well... It's been experimented on rats before, that if you give a mouse a button to push to stimulate its pleasure center in its brain, it'll literally kill itself by pushing that button until it drives itself to exhaustion, and it'll lose interest in everything else (food, water, etc.) It's been speculated that the same would happen to human beings.

      After reading that article (which sounds quite similar in nature to the opening of the book "The Terminal Man" by Michael Chrichton), I think it might be plausible to say that the same thing could be implemented in humans, but...

      The problem with controlling a human the same way is that a human, with the power of reasoning, will eventually come to the conclusion that there is something going on here--something or someone with an agenda trying to control it. And a human would likely then end up resisting--unless there were a pain center with an electrode implanted in it as well, for correction.

      Herein lies a Catch-22. Given a particularly strong-willed person with both pleasure and pain electrodes, after a while the person, beginning to resist, will quit being subjected to pleasurable stimulation and instead be frequently punished. This will tear away at the psyche of the subject in such a fashion as to eventually drive him/her to schizophrenia, insanity, or suicide.

      Of course, all this is quite barbaric and all. But this is what the psychiatric community tends to teach...

      Nevertheless, it would be great to have an electrode stuck into a pleasure center in my brain, with an easily-accessible pushbutton--surely I could handle it, right?

  • Pentagon insists real rats not being used (Score:5, Funny)

    by dazed-n-confused ( 140724 ) on Sunday August 11, 2002 @04:45AM (#4049682)
    SatireWire [satirewire.com] did a take-off of this three months ago, back when it was topical.
  • All the other kids have mouse look now!

  • does anyone else imagine (Score:4, Funny)

    by nzhavok ( 254960 ) on Sunday August 11, 2002 @05:05AM (#4049712) Homepage
    does anyone else imagine mad scientists racing radio contolled rats around a maze? no? just me?
  • What month did it happen?

    Live rats are fitted with electrodes so they could be steered toward hidden bombs or disaster victims.

    Was it:

    January 2002
    November 2001
    May 2002
    April 1999
    August 2002

    The correct answer is: May 2002, lets start checking dates and dupes!

  • Creepy (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Soporific ( 595477 )
    How long before we are hooked up to pleasure stimulating electrodes that make superior workers? Other than the computers we are working on right now?

    ~S
    • I don't know about your computer, but mine just won't stop running RtCW multiplayer. Quite unproductive, I must say.
    • Aren't we already hooked up to pleasure-stimulating devices? Such as..well..sex organs?
    • it's called money.
    • How long before we are hooked up to pleasure stimulating electrodes that make superior workers?

      I hope it's soon. It would replace the current inefficient and error-prone cycle of:
      work->money->shiny objects->attract woman->pleasure

      with the more elegant and foolproof:
      work->pleasure

      This could be a huge timesaver.

    • Human beings are quite different from rats.

      For example, we are quite capable of making conscious choices that override basic and natural instincts -- This is because our brains are evolved enough to visualize not only the immediate consequences of an action. In fact, we can visualize not only definite consequences, but even the likely and improbable ones.

      For example, we can choose to go on a diet, refusing the basic instinctive need to always completely satiate hunger whenever and wherever it is felt. We can choose to abstain from sexual activities, we can overcome chemical dependancies, we even take knowingly suicidal actions based on nothing more concrete than a single hope or belief -- all done by an act of conscious will.

      We learn by more than experience, we can be verbally told something and take the idea within it, and hold to it faster than anything else - defying logic, defying instinctive, and definitely defying natural behaviour.

      What does this all have to do with the subject, you may ask?

      If someone tried to hook up a human being to one of these things, they might find that the person could get excessively violent in his attempts to resist being controlled. We, as people, have historically shown contempt for being manipulated or enslaved -- many would even rather die. I have no doubt that attempting to control a human being with something like this (and that's even _IF_ the declaration of human rights is revoked, which would prohibit this outright anyways) would prove most unsuccessful when measured against its effiacy with simpler life forms. It simply wouldn't be worth the effort to find compliant people.

      • If the person who has a pleasure electrode implanted is allowed to press the "pleasure" key, he is most likely to be turned into a key- pressing junkie.
    • I'm going to make a fortune selling tin foil hats.
  • Perhaps Slashdot needs a thingy to extract the keywords out of a story and then search for previous stories containing those keywords and displaying them in a pre-submission "please confirm this story isn't a repost of one of the following".

    Pulling the keywords "remote control rats whisker brain control" out of the story I found the previous submission (in May, also by timothy) as the top hit. Whilst I'm a huge fan of blaming the editors, I'm sure their job would be easier if the re-submissions were being weeded out in advance.
  • Now, just a simple question to you all. What would you say if someone would be putting electrodes in YOUR brains (provided you have one, obviously) ? Animal vivisection should be prohibited, always. If you want to experiment with brains and such, why don't you use rapists or other death row prisoners ? Animals are living beings, as such they have rights. You all should start thinking about this.
    • That's right, we should release them all back into the wild, where they can run free and live long happy lives...

      What? The exterminator's number? Oh here. Yeah, rat infestations can be nasty, watch out for those mites...

      Back to the lab rats, where was I?
    • On a side note.... "troll" ?!?!
      Ok, so I guess you consider wwf, aavs, greenpeace and such, trollers ?
      Alright, now I start to understand what kind of people usually read /. ... good ...
    • Oh please. First and foremost, if it helps mankind in any way, then I submit that the testing is necessary.

      You would rather have the testing done on humans? This is quite ridiculous, even if said humans are rapists or murderers. It is cruel and unusual for the human because he/she is self-aware and understands what is happening. He/she can appreciate the fact that they are being tortured. Rats cannot. Animal testing is a necessary stage before any science can be applied to humans and as long as humane policies are in place for the testing and disposal of the animals, I have no problems with it.

      Whether you like it or not, animal testing has probably extended your life by about fifty or sixty years.
      • It is cruel and unusual for the human because he/she is self-aware and understands what is happening. He/she can appreciate the fact that they are being tortured. Rats cannot.

        Give me more evidence before you say rats are not self-aware! Sure they don't talk with us, but to conclude rats are not self-aware is illogical.
        Remember all animals react to pain, and yes 'animals' includes humans.
        Scientific American published an article (complete with pictures) about the sucessful creation of headless mice. Certainly you could justify their actions in terms of "the quest for knowledge" but at some point morality must weigh in. I suspect that the boundries placed on this kind of research cannot come from the desensitized scientists alone.

        (i think the article appeared in SciAm Sept 95)
        • They don't exactly react to pain. They react to tactile stimuli. Some plants also do, e.g. Mimosa pudica, and we can safely assume they don't feel pain, having no neural system at all. The only way to prove or disprove lesser animals are self-aware is through experimentation. Of course, animal rights zealots would like to make Pascal's bet on that point, except that unlike any hypothetic god, animals can be vivisected. If you've gone that far as making animal self-awareness your god, you're a sad, sorry person...
      • "First and foremost, if it helps mankind in any way, then I submit that the testing is necessary." Helps mankind?! How on Earth can this help us anymore than just creating a robot that can do the same thing? Why is this mind control with the electrodes necessary for human advancement? If anything this can only lead us closer to a world not unlike those in creepy sci-fi novels. If you want creatures to plow through rubble to find people then make a machine for that. Why let technology that could potentially be used to control a large group of people exist? I don't think this can be comparable to the argument about nuclear science either. Yes there was a bomb, but there was also a new energy source that actually could help the human race out. Where's the pro in controlling another being?
    • The basic problem I see with the idea of using murders and rapists would be:

      Who want's a remote controlled rapist? Now... RATS on the other hand... a remote controlled rat would be really... useful? Aw forget it.

      Seriously. It's just a rat. They're just animals. I'm all for protecting "animal rights" and what-have-you, but if it comes down to a choice of my life versus an animals... the animal is going to die. I'm not sure if a remote controlled rat is going to extend my life or make it better, but other innovations based on this research just might. So maybe it's justifiable after all.

      On the flip side of the coin maybe not. What do I know. I'm only typing what the guy in the white coat holding the controller is making me type anyway.

      Take Care
    • > What would you say if someone would be putting electrodes in YOUR brains (provided you have one, obviously) ?

      If the electrodes stimulated my pleasure center 24/7, by definition, the answer would be yes.

      (And if not before the surgery, then certainly after surgery. "Nope, no regrets at all, man, it's like they make me run these big mazes, but the walls themselves are made of cheese!")

  • From the article: "It's one thing to see a rat running around like this, people don't get too emotional about that, but as soon as you get into dogs or work animals, people start getting real excited," he said.

    I can see it now. Farmers having livestock (cows, horses, etc.) implanted with these devices so all they have to do is throw a switch and they
    are automatically commanded to come back to the barn for feeding / milking / slaughter / whatever. Add a GPS receiver, a livestock_id for each animal, and some software.

    Or, use this to make sure that Man's Best Friend stays within the yard or comes back to you when out for a run at the park How about adding a small microphone and a clock so Spot is commanded to Not Bark At Night so you (and the neighbors!) can get some sleep?

    I'm certain there are some people who would think these are Great Ideas ®

    The immediate downside I see is there is no feedback loop. What if the AUC (Animal Under Control) breaks a leg, gets a deep cut, is threatened by a predator, or is otherwise incapacitated? The controller (human or automated) is unaware of this and keeps sending commands to "GO THIS WAY!!!" Shudder. I sure hope society works out the ethical considerations well before they overcome the technical limitations! Just because we can doesn't mean we should!

    Sure, the expense is prohibitive, now. But there are some people for whom the expense is no object. The price of computers and other electronics have plummeted over the years. Power consumption requirements have dropped dramatically, too. I can well imagine that in 10 or so years, it would be possible to do this cheaply and easily.

    So, if some day I wake up in a bathtub full of ice with a note beside me... instead of it saying my kidneys have been removed it'll say a remote control has been implanted in my brain. Let the urban legends begin! =)

    'd

  • Now I can't wait to get one of these rats. Then I can just sit in my sofa with my brand new remotecontroller and play with my cat.

    No more ping-pong balls for me and my cat

  • Finally (Score:1)

    by Isle ( 95215 )
    .. we have found a way to get decent politicians.

    Rat Mind Control
  • What about strafing?
  • Brain: Pinky we have to get out of here
    Pinky: NARF how we gonna do that brain
    Brain: Pinky what is that riduclous thing on your head?
    Pinky: ZOGG! Oh this? The nice lady put this over my head so my mind control implants can't be set off by radio's
    Brain: That's it! We'll reverse engineer your mind control implants and adapt them to humans. We'll control them via radio waves!
    Pinky: Why would you wanna do a thing like that brain?
    Brain: WHy, WHY TO TAKE OVER THE WORLD!
  • I guess all the aforementioned organizations would have something to say about these "scientific" experiments...

    http://www.aavs.org/
    http://www.wwf.org/
    http://www.greenpeace.org/
  • there was a group at u. michigan that did the exact same thing with a cockroach a while ago. iirc, they found that it worked well at first but the signals became ineffective after a while.

    then again they didnt have much time to test it; it didnt live long
    • I remember that; I think it was something along the lines of the cockroach started figuring out what was going on when it started feeling things beside it that plainly weren't there. A cool idea, but you either have to eliminate all conflicting sources of information or directly interface with the motor neurons.
  • Crawling through tunnels in the rubble cut off transmission. But Chapin thinks he has a solution to thatâ"a networked group of rats that would act as repeaters.

    Suddenly I picture 100 rats marching single file down a tunnel. Now if they can teach them to build bridges, dig across, dig down, parachute, block and explode you could play lemmings for real!
  • with roach [intercorr.com]. At least, with tecnology advance, they are doing it with less disgusting little creatures...oh wait.
  • yahoo reported that months ago ,and it was also on here before..what gives ?
  • hrmmph, I have a device in my home. Its totally non invasive no electrodes nothing, but just the presence of it can completely mind control anybody. It can completely hypnotise the person, and make it do what the controller wants to. It can make persons but the chocolates, get a shirt which is not needed at all, or just splurge on anything.
    In case you are wondering what am i talking about, well its the TV, or the idiot box. No electrodes, no funny fires, just plain old mind control :-)

  • LOGO (Score:1)

    by czaby ( 93380 )
    I think the appropriate language to program rats would be LOGO [mit.edu].
  • IMO it would be far more usefull to reasearch the opposite... controling stuff with our mind. Id _love_ to be able to type with my mind. Code at the speed of thought... imagine that :) Of course one might have to be carefull their thoughts dont get distracted *cough* opposite sex *cough* :)
  • ..the scientists could easily capitalise this with the headlines:

    Rats able to get beer and do mowing!
  • ....all /. editors have been fitted with electrodes so you can force them to press accept for any story you submit. http://mindcontrol.slashdot.org/involuntarysubmiss ion.pl
    hmm actually that url brings some other possibilities to mind....
  • teach mine to do the hampsterdance and watch it play DDR.

    And then punish it for failing :)

  • Damn, here I was all proud of myself for having previously heard of something that made the /. front page. I wonder where I found out about it the first time?

    To get on topic, I think it's really interesting the steps we're making in brain research. Those paranoid among us freak out every time someone mentions brain control, but I see it as one step on the road to understanding our own brains. Who knows, someday we might even understand which defective lobe prompts people to bitch and moan about repeat posts by repeating each others' posts!

  • First you need to think about the type of rat you want to control. Do you want a Democratic rat or a Republican? There are many other alternatives such as a libertarian or a greenie, however those require more advance techniques and the gains are not as a great. The two mainstream types of roduntus politicious are much more plentiful, accessable and cost effective over the long term.

    After you chose your rat. You now need a very large organization that has in it's posession a large amount of money. Now do not be discouraged at this point, this easier done than you would be lead to belive. Simply take all ethics, integrity, honesty and honor that your soul posesses, roll all these traits into a little ball and then sell it on a street corner for crack.

    If you can perform this deed you have the potential to suceed in boardroom shinanigans, backstaping, corporate hoaring, thought theft, frivilous lawsuits, accounting coverups and the ocassiaonal rimjob. Perform these tasks to the best of your ability and you will have a large corporate entity under your control in a matter of a few years.

    Now you can't just pick any type of corporation and make it work with any rat. It just dosen't work out that way. Although there are exceptions there are general rules of thumb for picking the perfect corporation/rat marriage.

    If you want to subvert the thought process of a democrat, you will want a large entertainment company. Such a company might make movies, television, music. Now generally for entertainment the more mind-numbing the product the better.

    Remember that all you future Ted Turner's of the world. If your company produces quality mind-expanding entertainment that provokes thought in your target demographic then you are doomed to failure. A thinking population might actually think when they are in the voting booth. Such thinking causes random unforseen variables to occur like voting for the other guy.

    Oil, is a good industry to use to subvert a republican. Also a company with very deep ties with the military would be an outstanding choice.

    If you product destroys the enviroment and kills alot of people a republican is a sure thing.

    Rat control is a very old and time honored tradition thar predates even the Romans. With tried and true techniques to subvert every kind of rat to your will.

    There is nothing wrong with directly sticking a mind-controling apparatus into the subjects brain. You just need to take into consideration how obvious your influence when your rat is required to make a public speech with elctrodes, and wires sticking out of his/her head.
  • Jam some electrodes in my cats head and give him a shock when he doesn't pee/poop in the box!
  • I wonder if they use a joystick for this..
  • Man already has a device that can control what he does.

    That device is called woman.

  • Scientists have been able to do this for so many years, the concept of doing it with humans even appears in an old science-fiction novel, Woman on the Edge of Time [amazon.com], by Marge Piercy. Piercy describes doctors using it on people in mental institutions, to "help" them.

    This is not particularly newsworthy. The main problem with turning humans into robots in this fashion, like in Piercy's book, is that you have to cut away quite a bit of brain tissue to implant all those electrodes. Then again, most people don't use their brains that much, anyway . . .

  • isnt this pritty simulre to
    http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/05 /0 1/1918223&mode=thread&tid=126
    mind you, im currently a touch drunk,
    and cant be bothred to read..

    guilty as charged..
  • By the same editor too, go figure...
  • Rat Mind Control

    Well, not exactly mind control

    Well, not exactly chicken (but don't ask what).
  • no mention of when a human version would be available.

    It's called television.

    Reprogramming humanity since 19xx...

    --saint
  • What makes this different then putting one of the electrodes on each of its legs, and one on its ass? Rats are smart creatures, and it is conceivable that these things hurt. It could be that they simply trained the rat to respond to pain stimulus?

    END COMMUNICATION
  • you have all read "so long and thanks for all the fish"
    you know that it's the rats that are in control.
  • this was in my local newspaper months ago... the same paper that has the headline: "man arrested for stealing underwear." seriously.
  • Since this relies on manipulating the rat's senses, it wouldn't be very effective on humans. If you had something that caused a person to feel like there was something pushing their right side, they would very quickly learn that the sensation was false and ignore it. A rat doesn't have this sort of reasoning power, but humans can always override their instincts.
  • I can't get images from "Spock's Brain" out of my head...

  • Damn, didn't work.


    Oh, it's rat mind control. Not rat bastard mind control.

  • re (Score:1)

    by derago ( 582951 )
    i remember a tale where this guy only used a flute and fluted a flute loop to get the rats outta town, so why is this news?
  • This kind of think always makes me realize just how little we really know about the brain and the body and just how primitive our research and medical treatments are. This is right up there with some crazy experiment from the 1800s.
  • it would be so cool if they would duct-tape a webcam to a rat and put movement controls on a webpage."can you guide mickey through the pluming?" or how about a game where you rack up points for scaring the neighborhood ol ladies with borg-rat?

  • "But boss, this is a critical section of code, if I rush this part it will........never mind, I will finish it immediately, Oh Master."
  • Shoot, we've been doing this with cows, feed and cattle prods for the last umpteen years! Gimme that rat and I'll show you wee children how it's properly done.

    -Adam
  • They finally built a better Pied Piper?

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